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4 Mothers for 3 Babies


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#21 LadyOlennaTyrell

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 06:03 AM

What's about GerOld Dayne (not Gerald by the way) ? The man isn't even from the same Dayne family, it's just some distant cousin from another branch (High Hermintage), we don't know if he ever set a single foot in Starfall in his life.
On the other hand, Allyria Dayne, sister to Ashara and Arthur seemed to be still alive at the time of aSoS, according to Edric Dayne, since she was betrothed to Beric, she's the only member of the Dayne family who lived at the time of the Rebellion mentioned as being still alive.
And what about Wylla ? Can't we add her to the list of the potential mothers ? We know for sure, thanks again to Edric Dayne, that she's / was an actual person, and not a name made up by Ned (Stark) answering to King Robert in aGoT about Jon's mother. I'm pretty sure she played some part in a possible baby switch, and in the cover up story (Ned gave her name to Robert, and little Ned Dayne hed heard the same story). She's not mentioned as being dead either, if she's actually not dead, she could have some answers, maybe all the answers.

Regarding Dany's birth, that was always my theory. Rhaella's pregnancy always seemed unlikely to me. She wasn't very young (wa can assume she was around fourty : Aerys was fourty-one according to the wiki when he died, we don't know if Rhaella was just a little younger [much younger seems unlikely given Rhaegar's age when he died : 24], or maybe older), according to one of Jaime's POV (aFfC Jaime2) she was raped by Aerys JUST before leaving King's Landing, and bam ! she was pregnant of Dany !, plus no one ever saw her actually pregnant because she was in Dragonstone (at least, none of the POVs or the main characters, except ser Willem Darry who's dead and Viserys who was a little boy), she was already dead when Stannis took the castle and Dany, Viserys and Darry were already gone, and, oddly enough, though the reader spent a lot of time in Dragonstone through Cressen's and Davos' POVs, none of them ever encounter someone who was there when Rhaella and Viserys were there or when the castle was besieged (did Stannis kill everyone ?).
Moreover, the age difference between Dany and Rhaegar always made me wonder.
I explained in an other thread why I think "promise me Ned" is about protecting Dany (http://asoiaf.wester...roken-promises/).
You'd have to add all the references by Jorah and Barristan about Dany's and Rhaegar's similarities since aGoT, Dany's connection to her dragons, who bears similarities to the Starks' warging / skinchanging abilities (developed by someone in a thread I've read a few months ago), even if it's not exactly the same process.
And this parentage can be confirmed by the way you understand some of the HotU prophecies : 1) Rhaegar and Elia conceived Rhaenys and Aegon, if they wanted to recreate the original Targaryen "trinity", Visenya was missing, a GIRL was missing, this girl could be Dany. 2) Why showing Dany the prophecy about the PtwP if it's not her (what maester Aemon believed by the way), if Jon is the PtwP, why showing it to Dany ? because she has to find him ? because she has to unite her fire with his ice ? No, if we believe Rhaegar, the SoIaF is the song of the PtwP, he's or she's (according to maester Aemon's deathbed thoughts) the ice and fire combined in a sole person "'He has a song' the man replied 'He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire'"). We know that Rhaegar thought that was Aegon, and that was a mistake. So what's the point to show her that if that person is Jon (maybe she's have a part in the revelation, ok, why not...) ? Thus she gave birth to the dragons, she'd already done something supernatural. She's already one of the three heads of the dragon since she rode Drogon at the end of aDwD 3) there's a "list" of deaths she'd supposedly caused ("mother of dragons, daughter of death") : Viserys, the man who could have become Rhaego ("a tall lord with copper skin and silver-golden hair [...] beneath the banner of a fiery stallion"), and Rhaegar (a dying prince with rubies) ; she's responsible for Viserys' death by letting Drogo kill him, she's responsible for Rhaego's death by trusting Mirri Maz Duur, but why Rhaegar ? maybe because she's the living result of his love for Lyanna, ergo the war, ergo his death. This "list" also shows potential prophetic kings / rulers who never ruled (Viserys thought he was a dragon, Rhaego was prophetized to be the Stallion who Mounts the World, Rhaegar originally thought HE was the PtwP). 4) that could also explain "child of three" (a putative father : Aerys and a biological father : Rhaegar), but it's not really conclusive (why not child of four then ?).
Last argument : narratively speaking, why having Dany's POV since the beginning, in a completely paralell storyline until now (even if in the original trilogy the Dance with Dragons should have been (in) the second book), if there's absolutely no link with the other storylines which are pretty much intertwined since a GoT ? I like the aforementioned idea of a link between all the original POVs (by why Tyrion then ?).

#22 Hustle

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:35 PM

Lyanna Stark...So much has been made about her, why? She has to have a tie to a main character. Jon Snow = Red Herring. I had an idea about Mr. Jon Snow...Dawn:

Dawn is the ancestral greatsword of House Dayne. It is said to be made from metal forged from the heart of a fallen star.[1] Its blade is as pale as milkglass.[2] The sword is not necessarily passed to the lord of the house, but to the knight considered most worthy to wield it, who is then called the Sword of the Morning. The name of the Daynes' castle, Starfall, and their arms, featuring a white sword and falling star, both reference Dawn. The blade is said to be just as sharp as Valyrian steel.
Last known user of the sword is Arthur Dayne, who died in Tower of Joy. After the fight, Eddard Stark rode to Starfall to deliver Arthur's sword Dawn to Arthur's sister Ashara Dayne

If Jon is a Dayne he very well seems worthy of weilding Dawn, Dawn = Lightbringer

So, Dany is not the Prince who was Promised, she is the mother or Dragons. The dragon has 3 heads, but Jon may or may not be one of them, but I bet anything that Dawn, which is not Valyrian Steel, will play an important role later on in the story, but Jon's Story, the story of the North, and him eventually becoming King of the North.

About Wyalla:
Supposedly, she was the mother of Jon Snow, from a union with Eddard Stark. Lord Edric Dayne recounted to Arya Stark that his mother had no milk and so Wylla became his wetnurse, long after Jon Snow had left for the North. She served many years at Starfall.

This means that she either had several children, or was a constant wet nurse, but this does not mean we can put her in the mother category for any characters in the series.

#23 Lord Liam DarkStark

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:43 PM

No. Dany was born around nine months after Jon.

You mean nine months before jon....

#24 Jem

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:00 PM

You mean nine months before jon....


No I don't.

#25 ACVG

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:31 PM

dany couldn't have been switched
viserys was much older and would've noticed and he was somewhat of a "targaryen snob" and wouldn't have accepted his sister if she wasnt full blooded

#26 Hustle

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:45 AM

Visery's was born 275

Dany was born 284

At most, Visery's was 9 when Dany was born. It would have been very easy to switch babies on a 9 year old.

There is also the possibility that Visery's knew that Dany wan't really his sister, she was really his niece. It is possible multiple people knew this and that is why Dany was wed to Khal Drogo, to not interfere with plans to either put Viserys on the Iron Thrown, or much more likely, Aegon VI.

Think about it from Viserys, Dany's claim is much weaker as a sister then as a niece. If Dany was the daughter of Rhaegar, her claim to the Iron Throne was better then Viserys.

#27 MtnLion

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:52 PM

. . .
A Stark and Ashara Dayne - Stillborn
. . .
Jon could be the bastard of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne. It is said a Stark dishonored her, not Ned. I know there is a theory which has Aegon VI as the child of Ned and Ashara, as much as I would like that, very unlikely. I do think it would be fun.

Nope, it is never revealed who Barristan "thinks" dishonored Ashara. If you think that the last sentence says who dishonored Ashara, then why would Barristan want to dishonor her?

#28 MtnLion

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:04 PM

Visery's was born 275

Dany was born 284

At most, Visery's was 9 when Dany was born. It would have been very easy to switch babies on a 9 year old.

There is also the possibility that Visery's knew that Dany wan't really his sister, she was really his niece. It is possible multiple people knew this and that is why Dany was wed to Khal Drogo, to not interfere with plans to either put Viserys on the Iron Thrown, or much more likely, Aegon VI.

Think about it from Viserys, Dany's claim is much weaker as a sister then as a niece. If Dany was the daughter of Rhaegar, her claim to the Iron Throne was better then Viserys.

No, actually females are excluded under Targaryen inheritance laws, unless all other male claimants are exhausted (includes Baratheons).

#29 Anima

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:33 AM

It's true that there is no direct mention of Lyanna Stark ever giving birth but there are hints:

-The "bed of blood" already mentioned in this topic which doesn't necessarily mean she gave birth but still.

-And the fact that Raeghar Targaryen spent if I remember correctly most of the war in the tower with her and dubbed it the "Tower of Joy". I personnaly don't think he named it that thinking "yeah I f*****g killed that b****!" (I'm sure you can figure it out with a little imagination).

Edited by Anima, 16 October 2012 - 07:35 AM.


#30 Gauis Julius Caesar

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:41 PM

While I'm too lazy to look up the exact wording.. Eddard recalls her in a bed of blood at some point. The term is pretty commonly used to indicate childbirth at other points in the book.
Although there is no definitive proof that she was pregnant, you are correct.


not sure i believe this myself but just throwing it out there. whose to say she didn't kill herself when she realized all the death and destruction she caused by eloping/running off with rhaeagar? she indirectly caused a chain of events that brought down a dynasty and got her love killed, a very classic reason for suicide. and she would have realized that rhaegar was dead and the battle lost when her brother and his companions showed up. she could have slit her wrists then and when ned comes in the promise she wants him to keep is her true role in this so she's not made infamous for eternity. a selfish promise to keep but if we've all learned anything its that martins characters are all (with the exception of a choice few) a very vibrant shade of grey. and lyanna has always struck me as a bit too fairytale perfect, expecially when you see what brandon and rickard stark were really like. their, mystery solved, we can all go home lol

#31 MtnLion

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 02:16 PM

not sure i believe this myself but just throwing it out there. whose to say she didn't kill herself when she realized all the death and destruction she caused by eloping/running off with rhaeagar?

Ned remembers her dying of a fever.

#32 Gauis Julius Caesar

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:32 PM

Ned remembers her dying of a fever.


he remembers her dying of a fever but doesn't remember the pregnancy which through a bad labor supposedly caused the fever. doesn't that seem odd? wouldn't one thought logically lead to the next?

Edited by rhagarscuzin twice removed, 17 October 2012 - 03:33 PM.


#33 MtnLion

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:21 PM

he remembers her dying of a fever but doesn't remember the pregnancy which through a bad labor supposedly caused the fever. doesn't that seem odd? wouldn't one thought logically lead to the next?

Not if Ned thinks "bed of blood" means pregnancy (then he did logically connect it). /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

Edited by MtnLion, 17 October 2012 - 04:22 PM.


#34 Gauis Julius Caesar

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:28 PM

Not if Ned thinks "bed of blood" means pregnancy (then he did logically connect it). /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />


i don't know, ive always taken "bed of blood" to mean stillborn. from the first time ned said it i assumed a stillborn child

#35 MtnLion

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:04 PM

i don't know, ive always taken "bed of blood" to mean stillborn. from the first time ned said it i assumed a stillborn child

And when Mirri maz Dur says "bloody bed" that would not be birthing? There is what I would consider solid evidence that the "bed of blood" that Ned references is from childbirth. Theon says that Lyanna's gown was covered in gore, and the definition of gore is blood, especially if partially clotted. Again, Theon's dream does not dismiss childbirth. And, Ned's reference to the fever taking Lyanna rules out suicide.

Edited by MtnLion, 17 October 2012 - 05:05 PM.


#36 Jem

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:08 PM

he remembers her dying of a fever but doesn't remember the pregnancy which through a bad labor supposedly caused the fever. doesn't that seem odd? wouldn't one thought logically lead to the next?


No it doesn't seem odd. Ned was only there for the fever bit, he wasn't there for the pregnancy and labour.

#37 Hustle

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:35 PM

Ned is not a fool and could clearly tell that Lyanna had or didn't have a child.

There is also the promise bit...did Lyanna make Ned promise to protect her son or never search for her daughter?

#38 Gauis Julius Caesar

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:40 PM

Ned is not a fool and could clearly tell that Lyanna had or didn't have a child.

There is also the promise bit...did Lyanna make Ned promise to protect her son or never search for her daughter?


daughter? i thought the prevailing theory was jon

#39 MtnLion

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:42 PM

Ned is not a fool and could clearly tell that Lyanna had or didn't have a child.

There is also the promise bit...did Lyanna make Ned promise to protect her son or never search for her daughter?

Well, we certainly do not know exactly what Lyanna asked Ned to promise her. But, we do know that when she died flower petals fell from her hand. Jon seems to always be represented as a flower throughout the books symbolism. The blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice filling the air with sweetness. The crown of blue flowers that concealed thorns that wounded Ned. The crown of blue flowers that Rhaegar laid in Lyanna's lap. All of them have a specific symbolism, and one of them implies that Lyanna was holding Jon when she died.

#40 Gauis Julius Caesar

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:29 PM

Timelines are very fuzzy, plus...one thing no one brings up...characters LIE. That's what makes them human. Humans lie to other humans to advance their own goals.

Nothing which has been stated in the series is set in stone. Yes, there are things which are 99.9% stone, but something like Dany's birth, with next to nothing about Dany's birth mother being said at any point throughout the entire 6,000 pages of ASOFAI...makes one think. Dany seems more interested in finding out about her assumed brother then her assumed father.

I love the idea of Dany being the daughter of Lyanna and Rhaegar. It makes a lot of sense. Now...

There is nobody looking over the events of the series with a microscope who is in the series. by this I mean, if it was widely known that the Queen gave birth to a child on Dragon Stone, who could tell the differance between a six week old and a six month old. Seriously, people are looking at this with modern science. Babies are babies and babies, all babies, minus hair color, look alike. Lets be honest, switching a baby of low birth with one of high birth would be simple.


often times the best and most likely explanation is the simplest one. the more complicated something gets the less likely it is to be true

Edited by rhagarscuzin twice removed, 17 October 2012 - 09:30 PM.