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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIV


brashcandy

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Hello everyone!

I've been lurking around for quite awhile now but feel I have to step out in the light and compliment you for all the wonderful posts and thoughts.

The research that you've all done is incredible and this thread is something out of the ordinary so thank you for doing this.

:bowdown:

Another thing that just hit me but I'm sure has been obvious for many of you; the fact that Arya always refer to Sandor in her death-list as The Hound. I can't seem to recall that she ever mentions him in her list as Sandor Clegane. The Hound is the one she wishes dead. And her wish comes true (according to the Edler Brother)

Ever clever GRRM.

Keep up the good work guys, there are a lot of lurkers out there who slavishly follow all the pawn-to-player updates.

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Hello everyone!

I've been lurking around for quite awhile now but feel I have to step out in the light and compliment you for all the wonderful posts and thoughts.

The research that you've all done is incredible and this thread is something out of the ordinary so thank you for doing this.

:bowdown:

Another thing that just hit me but I'm sure has been obvious for many of you; the fact that Arya always refer to Sandor in her death-list as The Hound. I can't seem to recall that she ever mentions him in her list as Sandor Clegane. The Hound is the one she wishes dead. And her wish comes true (according to the Edler Brother)

Ever clever GRRM.

If you want to get even more clever, Arya did actually get her revenge on the Hound, in a very roundabout way. Remember, Rorge, the one who committed all the atrocities wearing the Hound's helm, thereby ensuring Sandor Clegane would never be able to resume his former identity as the Hound/Sandor Clegane, was freed by Arya. By sparing the life of the person who would go on to commit all those war crimes in the Hound/Sandor Clegane's name, she has effectively condemned "the Hound/Sandor Clegane" to death without actually killing him, by ensuring that he'll never be able to show his face again unless he wants to face execution for his "crimes." A very neat trick.

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Hello everyone!

I've been lurking around for quite awhile now but feel I have to step out in the light and compliment you for all the wonderful posts and thoughts.

The research that you've all done is incredible and this thread is something out of the ordinary so thank you for doing this.

:bowdown:

Another thing that just hit me but I'm sure has been obvious for many of you; the fact that Arya always refer to Sandor in her death-list as The Hound. I can't seem to recall that she ever mentions him in her list as Sandor Clegane. The Hound is the one she wishes dead. And her wish comes true (according to the Edler Brother)

Ever clever GRRM.

Keep up the good work guys, there are a lot of lurkers out there who slavishly follow all the pawn-to-player updates.

:agree: :cheers: So so true!

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Mahaut = yes, it was Milady who brought it with Aphrodite. But I was wondering why a rose and not other thing as grapes or birds, as Milady shows that can be. And thinking again at the time that Villeneuve write the tale flowers had a whole language. One flower means a different thing rewading its color or if has bloomed or not yet.

And returning to ASOIAF, Sansa got a red rose from Ser Loras. As my personal color meaning at ASOIAF, red means danger. It is a way of telling that the Tyrell are a danger to her.

In addition, she keeps the flower during The Hound and Jaime combat. It can be interpreted as her wish to have a true love.

----------------

About Ygritte and Jon, you have convinced me: they are both B&B.

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I don't know. To me the passing of the Hound helm suggests passing the Hound Persona. Each person who wears it is associated with savagery and brutally. When Lem appears with it seems to set a seal on the degradation of the BWB. So to me if the helmet was to return to Sandor it would be a very bad symbol, you know "cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war".

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Alright, sers and my ladies, the paper is ready for posting. It took Milady more time than expected; apparently she had offended the Muses by not pouring enough libations in their honour, but after a nice cup o' wine they were contented -and Milady got her inspiration back to get outta the Meereenese Knot that had become the psychological interpretation. Just a note: Milady has put such emphasis on comparative mythology because that's the best interpretation and actually is based on text (and context) more than on mere theory. So, after the long paper that follows, may the discussion and crackpottery begin!

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On the Symbolism of Psyche’s Four Tasks

[…] personal development requires the courage of a pioneer, the honesty of a child, the imagination of an artist, and the confidence of the naïve, and often begins from deep despair, disillusionment, and a change of mind. The journey gives one a special energy and changes the traveler forever."

TOM HEUERMAN.

The variety of academic works aiming at explaining only the symbolism of the trials Psyche went through before gaining immortality is extraordinarily large, as each scholar and writer interprets it differently according to the body of knowledge unique to each field, yet there are three interpretations that rise high above the rest due to their relevance with regards to our present project’s object of study. These are the theosophical/philosophical interpretation, the psychological interpretation and comparative mythology. Let’s see how each field views these trials:

a.
Theosophy and Philosophy
: There are modern theosophical theories that see this tale as a voyage of spiritual initiation. According to this interpretation of the Psyche myth, she is a figure that represents the soul, which is in itself beautiful due to being an image and child of the
divine, yet she is parted early from her parent by ignorance. And because of this, she must begin a long search during which hardship, disappointment and failure are the hallmarks of her inner growth, until she reaches a higher dimension requiring qualities that she brings forth as she completes the tasks forced upon her by Venus. For the Stoic philosophers of the Classical period, the purpose of each trials is to push the development of moral, intellectual, and spiritual character traits, and each task corresponds to the four cardinal virtues this school of thought considers fundamental: wisdom, courage, justice and temperance (or self-mastery).

b.
Psychology
: This field is the most prolific regarding interpretative works on this tale, because of all the Greco-Roman myths, only Oedipus’s story has received more attention from these professionals than Psyche’s. Psychological interpretations of this myth are split in two major camps: the Freudian, which is largely outdated, and the Jungian; and whilst both agree that it symbolises a process of mental development, they differ on the whys and what fors: those in the former camp see it as a process of overcoming sexual anxieties, repressed infantile curiosity and guilt, and those in the latter see it as the unfolding of the unconscious, and some within this camp have expanded it to allude specifically to a woman’s struggle to reach greater consciousness without cutting herself off from deeper sexual and affective needs. Carl Gustav Jung, the creator of this school, found the number four very significant, so the fact that the trials are four signals their purpose to lead the young woman to psychological wholeness, that is, maturity. Venus is here in the place of the motherly archetype that gives comfort and security, but, at the same time, resists inner growth and consciousness (as exemplified by the manner in which she manipulates, bullies and infantilises Eros, who is the potential for love) and thus retards the normal progress of a woman towards wholeness.

The Jungians go into more detailed explanations of the tasks above all else in the plot and therefore theirs could be considered the most complete psychological interpretation for this myth, despite not being a unified theory but one with vast ramifications, a reason to not list them individually for this study but to sort out a few of the most relevant ones, featuring prominently some from the first interpretative essay on this story,
Amor and Psyche
by Erich Neumann, who saw this tale as a mythical portrait of the way women develop psychologically, and his perspective would influence all subsequent theorists who’d address this topic. To him, the four tasks had each a peculiar meaning, and he explains them as confrontations with negative principles Psyche must overcome in her path to completion.

c.
Comparative mythology
: According to classicists Juanita Elford and Ellen Finkelpearl, Psyche’s trials have some elements that allow comparisons to the story of Aeneas, Prince of Dardania, a son of Venus by a mortal lover, who after fleeing the fires that destroyed Troy, had to undergo a rosary of trials because he’d earned the enmity of goddess Juno (Hera), and after a long voyage that took him to Carthage, would finally establish himself somewhere in ancient Italy. Roman poet Publius Vergilius Maro (Virgil) has told his story in the epic poem
The Aeneid
, written approximately a century earlier than Apuleius’
The Golden Ass
. In many ways, Psyche’s tasks are a parody or subversion of Aeneas’, for they go from the epic scale of Aeneas’ escape from Troy, his travels and his role in the birth of Rome down to the level of love, marriage and children. Interestingly, the first parallel is right at the beginning, when Venus is, again, trying to manipulate for her own plans an unsuspecting mortal, Dido, and cajoles her boy into wounding her with his arrows so she falls in love with Aeneas, who’s also her son! But the motives are different: cruel and selfish in Psyche’s case, and caring and sympathetic in Aeneas’. Highlighting allusions and shared elements such as these in both hero journeys, for that’s what they are, helps us decipher the symbolism present in Psyche’s quest for identity and love.
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The tasks

Task Number One: Little Creatures Shall Succour Thee

a.
The sorting of grain with the ants' assistance is a metaphor for the development of basic yet crucial qualities like patience and discrimination or selectivity (the grain), and diligence (ants). This, in the Stoic perspective, is self-mastery.

b.
According to the Jungian first interpretation, seeds represent the fertility principle (and as a counterpart the negative principle of promiscuity associated with Venus as goddess of love and, by extension, of fertility); sorting them is to deal with this negative aspect, and the ants represent the forces of the vegetative or peripheral nervous system that controls automatic bodily functions such as the reproductive ones.

c.
Elford states that while Aeneas is not compelled by Juno to attempt a task analogous to the separation of seeds imposed on Psyche, her reaction at the prospect is expressed in a phrase from the
Aeneid
(
silens obstupecit
, “stunned silence”), and the intervention of the ant is a Virgilian motif as well, although more well developed.

The ants as helpers in times of distress are a recurrent motif that appears in the very earliest Greek myths, as exemplified by the legend of the Myrmidons, the élite troops Achilles led against Troy. There had been a plague in the Greek kingdom of Aegina that was destroying all that walked, crawled, flew or swam, so their monarch begged the gods to succour his people, which Zeus did by sending an army of ants–who had been peacefully gathering grain until then–and they transformed into humans before the eyes of the astounded king, and repopulated the cities, tilled the empty fields to feed the few survivors, and became a disciplined and much feared corps of warriors. Them and their progeny would be from then on be known as Myrmidons, from
myrmex
: ant. In another tale, ants originated from an Athenian maiden called Myrmices, who was the darling of Athena for her diligence and honesty, but she disobeyed the goddess when she gave the plough she was hiding to Ceres, the earthy deity, and was transformed into an ant in punishment, this new grain-gathering insect would become sacred to Ceres.

Ants were a godsend to Aeneas and Psyche as well. Not so much for the former as for the latter, because in the
Aeneid
ants don’t have an active role, but the similes they appear in enlighten us about their symbolism in Roman culture: industriousness, collectivity and prudence. They are animals for winter: they accumulate huge amounts of grain that make it possible for them to survive the crudest of climates going underground, which also explains why they are linked to the Underworld. They are small, they work in silence, overlooked by all, underestimated by all and ignored by all, except for the Olympians, who chose these small creatures to help their human creatures and to teach them important lessons about love, charity, diligence and helpfulness when necessary. Even the God of Israel does that, we can read in the Book of Proverbs a line that asks the lazy of spirit to observe the ants’ hardworking habits and mimic it for their own good: “
Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise!”

The seeds were wheat, poppy, lentils, beans, millet and barley, the most common grain people consumed in ancient times and still do in many parts. Wheat is the most significant of all these, for it’s the symbol of bounty and prosperity. Beans share that symbolic significance, but they’ve got also a negative side wheat doesn’t. Seeds, especially wheat, have also a spiritual meaning, for they are products from the womb of the earth, that is of Demeter, mother of Persephone, and sowing and harvesting this grain was regarded as a symbol of death and rebirth: the seed must go underground (die) to be reborn as something different and vital.

Task Number Two: The Glitter of Gold on a Bough

a.
The collecting of the golden fleece symbolises unification and truth (the "golden strands" of truth). This would chiefly develop a sense of justice according to Stoicism.

b.
Fleece in itself represents wisdom and strength of spirit, but rams are the destructive masculine principle (aggression), and the reed that advises her is the feminine vegetative principle of growth, say theorists in the Jungian camp.

c.
There’s no exact parallel with the gathering of the golden wool in Aeneas’ story but with the legend of Jason and the Golden Fleece. Nevertheless, certain elements are to be found in both, such as the dawn, the woods setting, the search for a golden item (in Psyche’s case a fleece and in Aeneas’ a bough), and the reception of instructions (from the reed for her, from the Sybil of Cumae for him) on how to gather it. In each case, they both have to find a tree which glistens with gold and remove the desired golden object, and do not retrieve it without physical effort. For the Hellenes, gold–both the colour and the metal–symbolised incorruptibility, indestructibility and immortality, and was thought to have the power to clarify what was murky or dark, thus paving the way for knowledge, light and action/activity. Hence the emphasis on golden carriages, armour, arms, tools and, above all, golden hair in their gods’ descriptions, and why they were especially insistent in Aphrodite’s case, to the point of flatly rejecting different colouring in depictions of this deity, a tradition the Romans wouldn’t always follow.

A quest for a golden object could be interpreted as the search for a higher dimension within a woman’s being to discover her own untried talents –her inner gold– and gaining knowledge about them would enable her to be more independent and self-confident, push her into action, thus she’d depend only on herself to carve out a future for herself and her loved ones. Moreover, finding the gold and retrieving it requires effort and investing a lot of energy, which is proven by the fact that, though Psyche receives instructions, she still has to gather it, to tire herself working in it. Gold is never a gratuitous gift of the gods for the ancients: discovering it, extracting it from mines, or gathering it from the golden sheep, meant sweat and tears and blood. All the heroes who went for it had to display organisation skills, courage, astuteness, etc. This was therefore a task that developed inner strength, determination and willpower in all of them, including Psyche.

But the Hellenes didn’t see things so black and white, there’s no light without shadows and the terrors living within. Gold had also a negative symbolism: corruption, the perversion of people and society from the roots up, the exaltation of negative appetites, the pure becoming impure. In Jason’s case, the temptations he faced on his quest for the Golden Fleece were that of perverse dominance (misuse of power) and debauchery. Gold is a double-edged spiritual symbol, as we’ve seen, and a ram is innocence, much like the Judeo-Christian lamb is purity, whilst fleece stands as a symbol of sublimation; therefore, this was a quest to win strength of spirit and purity of soul, and to retrieve the fleece from the trees–a symbol of life, but also of brave warriors dying heroically in battle in Homeric allegory–it hung on, the source of perversion had to be killed first, or he’d still be in danger of being corrupted by the other side of the golden coin.
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Task Number Three: The Waters of Death

a.
Curiously, the third task has no clear interpretation in this field. But in philosophy this is supposed to teach her about courage and
prudentia,
wisdom
,
represented by the intervention of an eagle.

b.
Neo-Jungian interpreters say that the act of retrieving the waters is characterised as a way of learning to channel and use inner psychic energies without being unbalanced by them, because these waters are from the River of the Dead, a symbol of spiritual death, and the crystal vessel used to contain them is the fragility of the human soul that is in danger of losing itself while preparing for transformation through spiritual death and rebirth.

c.
Psyche’s third trial is also reminiscent of Aeneas’ experiences, starting with the language Venus uses to describe the landscape and the task itself when issuing the order, which suggests a link to the Underworld described in the
Aeneid
; and continuing with the description of Psyche’s travel towards attaining the deadly waters, the rocky landscape of the location where the Styx is placed, and the inclusion of monsters and an eagle, closely associated with Jupiter. In this task, Psyche is passive and weak, unlike her Trojan counterpart, and does not actually do a single thing, failing even to kill herself as she wishes because of despair.

In Greece and Rome, the eagle is Zeus’ bird; it symbolises omnipotence, and because of that no other deity had a right to be associated with this bird, and they were banned from Venus presence because her birds were fragile ones that’d be hunted down and killed. His was a special, giant white eagle with the power to communicate telepathically the messages the god sent, and when an eagle appeared, it meant that mortal was to move to a different plane of existence –which for Psyche was going to the Underworld– so it was an omen for changes as well. The Styx, on the other hand, was a female river in Greek mythology (stream and river gods are male), and its black waters had the power of conferring invulnerability (that’s why Achilles was dipped in it by his mother). Its powers were so great that gods had to swear their oaths by the waters of the Styx, binding ones they could not break. Moreover, the Styx was the personification of hate, as evidenced by its name in old Greek:
stygos
= hatred.

Like other elements from the underworld, this stream could symbolise the end of a cycle; in Apuleius’ scenario rebirth can occur and new circumstances will unfold, as evidenced by the eagle’s presence, but the old way/the old person is dead and will never return in its original form, as Psyche didn’t, thus the black colour of its waters would be a metaphor for the mourning experience necessary to prepare for a new cycle as a changed person.

Task Number Four: A Visit to Hell

a.
The descent into the Underworld is difficult to describe without employing the imprecise language of mysticism, for this task is an allegory of the supreme initiation for a neophyte in the ancient mystery cults such as those of Isis and Demeter, where a neophyte, whose emotional and mental states were highly developed thanks to successfully completing earlier stages, was able to enter into a state of ecstasy that made possible for his soul to reach the highest spiritual dimension where he’s supposed to join with the divine, and when
he is back in his body, the soul has followed in full awareness the path it otherwise could have traveled only unconsciously during sleep, or death. Having experienced the wonder-life beyond, he is reborn soul and must share this knowledge, as far as he is able, with those who dwell in darkness, that is, non initiates. Psyche, as the neophyte’s soul, passes the ordeal and is "resurrected" from mortal to immortal.

b.
Traditional Jungian theory considers that the beauty ointment is a metaphor for the eternal youth of death, the state of eternal barren maidenhood, lacking the love of a man; and the deadly sleep is a regressive attempt of the narcissistic part of the unconscious (of which the Underworld is a symbol) to pull Psyche back from womanhood to her former girlhood, putting a halt to her mental development.

c.
Elford declares that the most striking link between Psyche and Aeneas is that their
descensus ad Infernus
is placed in the sixth book–ancient works are divided in “books,” equivalents to our chapters–of their respective stories; proof that Apuleius was using Virgil as a model for his construction of the Underworld, because Latin authors place their homages, imitations and subversions in the same order they are in the work that inspired it. The elements in common are again an advisor (the voice in the tower for Psyche and the Sibyl for Aeneas) that tells them the secrets of the location, describes the topography and characters they’ll encounter; plot similarities (the danger of Psyche accepting Proserpine’s invitation to sit, both Psyche and Aeneas must appear before the goddess with an object, and both undergo labors) with some funny twists (Charon is an efficient and humourless bureaucrat, and Cerberus is a useless watchdog whose barking serves for nothing and is tricked into letting her enter the forbidden realm with honey cakes), and inversion of plot (Aeneas’ safe return back to the living through the Gate of Sleep is inverted when Psyche falls into a sleep akin to death after she opens the box of beauty). Elford also notes that Psyche going there is in itself the greatest plot twist on the traditional myths of descending into Hades’ dwellings, because this task is carried out by males only. That, this scholar asserts, is a plot device to stress just how pretty ludicrous it is to place girly, helpless, unfortunate, innocent and trusting Psyche in the same position of strong, invincible Hercules; cunning, multitalented Orpheus or heroic Aeneas; as is her comparatively “trivial” womanly goal of obtaining a pot of beauty, which contrasts with the male heroes’ more “serious” goals. And one more interesting detail is that the Underworld is for the first time in Roman literature called
Domum Proserpinae
,“House of Proserpine,” rather than the usual
Domus Ditis
,“House of Dis” (Dis is another name for the god Hades/Pluto).

All of which makes this the story of a woman’s descent to a woman’s realm at the order of a woman.

So the hero journey, or rather the improbable heroine journey, that had begun in a significant place –on the top of a mountain– is completed. In Antiquity, exposure on a rock symbolised the end of childhood; it marked the dead of the girl and the birth of the maturing woman, the first change and the first step toward a new identity, a new course of action, a new role, like we expect for Sansa, and descending to where the dead dwelt was the ultimate trial that a mortal could complete on his transformative journey. That she was pregnant during this quest represents her biological maturing as a woman (sex and motherhood), and that she goes down to the Underworld of all places is a metaphor for finally leaving all the past behind her. Venus wanted to kill her, and so she did. She “killed” the old persona of Psyche by sending her on a path to maturity.
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Mahaut = yes, it was Milady who brought it with Aphrodite. But I was wondering why a rose and not other thing as grapes or birds, as Milady shows that can be. And thinking again at the time that Villeneuve write the tale flowers had a whole language. One flower means a different thing rewading its color or if has bloomed or not yet.

And returning to ASOIAF, Sansa got a red rose from Ser Loras. As my personal color meaning at ASOIAF, red means danger. It is a way of telling that the Tyrell are a danger to her.

In addition, she keeps the flower during The Hound and Jaime combat. It can be interpreted as her wish to have a true love.

I think the rose really makes sense if you keep the meanings love, woman and rebirth. The Beast needs the love of a woman to undergo his transformation and be humain again (being somehow reborn).

And back to ASOIAF: It's pretty ironic really. Just like us, Sansa sees many different meanings into the red rose Loras gave her. But in the end, she says it herself: it didn't mean anything to him. But I really like your interpretation of red as danger. It's also the color of the Lannisters, Sansa's ennemies.

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Thank you! So much to read here, looking forward to it.

I messed up a bit with the translation, it's "The Crimson Flower" actually, but hey, was close enough

OMG Little Wing!!! :D you made me so happy right now!! i've seen this version but it must be more than 5 years since they last air it on tv. i remember coming home on sunday afternoons to watch foreign cartoons and that was one of them! i loved it and i like remembering my childhood with the movies i used to watch, so thanks for the link!!

Milady, will read your Psyche's work tomorrow when i will try and write a worthy response to it! and brash, thank you for those links!!

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You're very welcome Caro99! :) Who knows if I'd remember it if you guys weren't doing this elaborate analysis of BatB in the first place... The rendition of the Beast in this one is very much different of how we usually imagine a beast in human form would look like. It sort of blends in with the island it lives on. But those eyes..poor lonely thing...

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You're very welcome Caro99! :) Who knows if I'd remember it if you guys weren't doing this elaborate analysis of BatB in the first place... The rendition of the Beast in this one is very much different of how we usually imagine a beast in human form would look like. It sort of blends in with the island it lives on. But those eyes..poor lonely thing...

Without giving too many spoilers away, i remember him hiding in the garden as he looked at her, and i remeber him hoarsely calling for her at one point, but yeah those eyes and that beautiful garden were the things that made me remeber i'd seen this version! :)

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So the hero journey, or rather the improbable heroine journey, that had begun in a significant place –on the top of a mountain– is completed. In Antiquity, exposure on a rock symbolised the end of childhood; it marked the dead of the girl and the birth of the maturing woman, the first change and the first step toward a new identity, a new course of action, a new role, like we expect for Sansa, and descending to where the dead dwelt was the ultimate trial that a mortal could complete on his transformative journey. That she was pregnant during this quest represents her biological maturing as a woman (sex and motherhood), and that she goes down to the Underworld of all places is a metaphor for finally leaving all the past behind her. Venus wanted to kill her, and so she did. She “killed” the old persona of Psyche by sending her on a path to maturity.
Fascinating Milady. Thanks so much. Given that Sansa has just completed the first part of descending from a a mountain top, I am really curious now to see if the next phase of her story will take her somewhere that might have an underworld quality or symbolism to it. Perhaps those caves in the Fingers or the QI? That's like living in the earth which is like the underground or underworld.

So, no self respecting project on Beauty and the Beast should be without visual illustrations :) Hope you guys enjoy these few selections as much as I did!
Brash thanks to you too! I loved these. Since Milady just posted about Psyche's tasks, and the last one being the hardest causing Psyche to fall into a deep sleep, I thought you might all enjoy these images of this beautiful sculpture by Canova of Psyche being revived by Cupid's kiss.

http://musee.louvre.fr/oal/psyche/img/fond01_02.jpg

http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/40/4010/VMIWF00Z/posters/psyche-brought-to-life-by-eros-kiss-1793.jpg

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