416 replies to this topic

[Memory Lane]

I know it's a little early to start this thread (we're still on page 20), but I couldn't resist making the inevitable reference to the 111 Hells that are supposedly in the Excruciata mentioned in WLW. So . . . first!

[Happy Ent]

So let me start the White Luck Warrior MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM thread immediately!

[Triskele]

Man - There are so many little details to keep track of.  The Excruciata?  Was that some ancient text about what damnation is supposed to be like?  I don't remember that at all.

[Francis Buck]

Triskele, on 18 October 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Man - There are so many little details to keep track of.  The Excruciata?  Was that some ancient text about what damnation is supposed to be like?  I don't remember that at all.

I really need to do a re-read of this series, because half the shit you guys talk about in these threads I've never even heard of (or at least don't remember clearly), though I find it interesting nonetheless. Also, how many stories outside of main installments are there? The only ones I've read are The False Sun and that stream-of-consciousness piece about the erratic Nonman. Are there other relevant short/side stories Bakker has done?

[Sci-2]

Francis Buck, on 18 October 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

I really need to do a re-read of this series, because half the shit you guys talk about in these threads I've never even heard of (or at least don't remember clearly), though I find it interesting nonetheless. Also, how many stories outside of main installments are there? The only ones I've read are The False Sun and that stream-of-consciousness piece about the erratic Nonman. Are there other relevant short/side stories Bakker has done?

Those are the only two.

Excruciata comes up at the end of WLW. It's the Hell Galian apparently will be sent to. I think of this as an example showing that though Mim may be able to see the truth of damnation/morality to an extent, it's still colored by her own exposure to depictions of damnation.

It's like a classic NDE experience, where if you're Christian you just happen to meet Jesus and if you're Hindu you just happen to meet Vishnu.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

We should have switched to Unholy Consult I instead of WLW XI, what with the new preview and everything.

[Madness]

Pish. You should all bring these debates to the Second Apocalypse. Join us!

A couple thoughts about the Dreams.

I don't know anywhere in the books where it confirms that Seswatha is indeed Nau-Cayuti's father - if I recall correctly, when Achamian starts dreaming Seswatha's mundane life in TJE, Seswatha is... bedding the Anasurimbor Queen and the time-frame of the Dreams suggests that that is happening years after Nau-Cayuti is already born.

The Dream Varients: Though they do occur throughout the books, as affected by Achamian's life - I've long suspected that Mandate Schoolman will dream the Dreams uniquely and individually as the Dreams cannot completely suppress normal dreams. However, the variations beyond Achamian seeing his face in a mirror in TDTCB and his mentioning that Schoolman have previously gone mad deciphering the various permutations are actually pretty miniscule - up until Achamian's hypnotism by Kellhus.

Also, as, I believe lockesnow, wrote in the excerpt thread on Second Apocalypse, Mimira suggests that the "timing" of the Dreams is what is important, which is actually a Layer of Revelation as it reformats our understanding of the Dreams in the previous books. And the Dreams really do seem to reflect timing.

This leads into the other theory that I've plugged for almost as long as I've read the books.

The Dreams are and always were a cypher. That is the Mandate Schoolman whose life starts most resembling Seswatha's - the Schoolman who finds himself a Kahiht in the beginnings of the Second Apocalypse will begin dreaming more of the Dreams, based on him/her being Seswatha's titular successor. Also, I'm using Kahiht - those locked into the center of World Events - as defined by the books, not suggesting that Achamian may really be a Kahiht, as he himself muses in WLW that a Kahiht is somehow as legendary as the White-Luck Warrior.

So Achamian starts Dreaming these "other" Dreams, including the mundane life of Seswatha and Nau-Cayuti's life at all because there's information neccessary for him to combat the Second Apocalypse.

However, there are holes in that - most glaringly, the Dream of Sauglish in TJE where Seswatha is nowhere to be found. Before Achamian clearly went off the Seswatha Dream rails, I had thought perhaps that Achamian might find that he could exude agency in those moments of his Dreams... that is, he could do differently than Seswatha and actually affect the timelines.

...

Food for thought.

Edited by Madness, 18 October 2012 - 12:25 PM.

[kalbear]

This fucking thread split is lame as fuck.

[Triskele]

kalbear, on 18 October 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

This fucking thread split is lame as fuck.

The split?  Or the timing of it???

[kalbear]

It wouldn't be a split if the timing didn't suck.

[Memory Lane]

It's not a split. It's a new thread, since the old one is going to hit the Page 21 lock either today or very early tomorrow.

As for the "Excruciata", it's something that Mimara references near the end of WLW. Basically, it's an artistic depiction of the 111 Hells that make up damnation back in Momenn.

[Triskele]

kalbear, on 18 October 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

It wouldn't be a split if the timing didn't suck.

So much time worrying about the what when we should have been worrying about the when.  What does it mean?

[Sci-2]

I'm curious - does anyone think Mim actually saw Galian's specific fate? That the Excruciata was in fact correct?

[lockesnow]

Triskele, on 18 October 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

So much time worrying about the what when we should have been worrying about the when.  What does it mean?

When do you See?!

[Memory Lane]

sciborg2, on 18 October 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

I'm curious - does anyone think Mim actually saw Galian's specific fate? That the Excruciata was in fact correct?

I think so. She can see the scars of damnation, so it's not a huge stretch for her to see the actual damnation when she looks at people with the JE. "God is always watching" and all that.

[Rhom]

Madness, on 18 October 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

I don't know anywhere in the books where it confirms that Seswatha is indeed Nau-Cayuti's father - if I recall correctly, when Achamian starts dreaming Seswatha's mundane life in TJE, Seswatha is... bedding the Anasurimbor Queen and the time-frame of the Dreams suggests that that is happening years after Nau-Cayuti is already born.

Certainly it doesn't come out and say it.  (That ties into Kal's infodump rage!   )  However, Akka writes in his notebook about the affair and then "Nau-Cayuti?"  The implication is that it wasn't the first time that Ses banged his friend's wife and therefore, the NC debate begins.  I think its strongly implied at the least.

[Sci-2]

Saint Bass, on 18 October 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

I think so. She can see the scars of damnation, so it's not a huge stretch for her to see the actual damnation when she looks at people with the JE. "God is always watching" and all that.

Yet this would also mean that someone else managed to get the details of damnation correct when writing the Excruciata. It's just too convenient, like going to Heaven and having it mirror the Koran or Bible to the T.

I took it as a sign that Mim's Judging Eye is as subject to doubt as the Inverse Fire.

[Memory Lane]

Or it could mean that the artist had the Judging Eye, which isn't a huge stretch (Akka has heard of it, so other people must have had it before Mimara).

[Madness]

Quote

The implication is that it wasn't the first time that Ses banged his friend's wife and therefore, the NC debate begins.  I think its strongly implied at the least.

Achamian is not the first Mandate Schoolman to suggest this - I'd have to check but I believe that Achamian thinks about Nau-Cayuti's parentage more than once in the series, as he's musing Seswatha's life, and the TTT Glossary fleshes it out from a more general Mandate perspective. He's primed to see that connection and look for evidence of it, factual or not, just like we, the readers, are.

Why would that tie into Kalbear's infodump rage lol? As I wrote, I don't think anything from the story or the excerpt supplies concrete evidence for Seswatha's fatherhood. Nothing but the assumptions of a bunch of readers based on the possibility that Bakker's laced into the narrative.

Edit:

Quote

Yet this would also mean that someone else managed to get the details of damnation correct when writing the Excruciata

Other people have had the Judging Eye, else it likely wouldn't be a myth.

Also, Bakker wrote in the Part 2 interview with Pat revealing the Inchoroi as ingravers of the Tusk that there are more than Kellhus who've travelled to the Outside and returned, having an influence on the World's noosphere and Man's common understanding.

Edited by Madness, 18 October 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[Rhom]

Question that was probably answered in one of the 9 threads that came before I finished WLW.

Akka tells Mimara that TJE is the eye of the unborn; and Mim is certainly pregnant after their bizarre, quasi-incestuous liason early in the AE story-arch.  But Mim tells Akka about TJE and (I think) even has a vision of his damnation even before they bump uglies.

How?