Ned's crypt, Lady Dustin, Pink letter

[Buried Treasure]

Well I obviously didn't mean the Bolton's. I mean big bad Bolton's betray the lovable Starks. It's more realistic that some of the great houses of the North dislike the Starks as opposed to Bolton's making a pragmatic decision and everyone hating them for it. It's just kind of lame for every Northern house outside the Bolton's to be big, secret Stark loyalists working in a conspiracy to bring about the betrayers.

Look at it the other way though - everybody hates Bolton because of his own actions. He's chosen to ally himself with the Frey's who they all hate for murdering their kin - which for any given family the murder of their own relatives is even worse than the mutual grief they all feel for the murder of Robb. Because Stark and Bolton are viewed in opposition of each other any northerners that previously thought Ned was no more than an okay lord are suddenly lionising all Starks past and present. It would work the opposite way too, these Houses have long histories and if the current Stark was a tyrant whom the Manderlys were rebelling against they would probably talk about some incident six centuries ago when a Stark screwed them over rather than waxing lyrical about the Promise.

She made sure the crypt door was unburied and not frozen shut. That was the whole purpose of the trip into the crypts- everything else was just a smokescreen presented to Theon, who is a known Bolton tool. It won't be Stannis entering the crypts, though. It will be a northern force probably headed by Howland Reed.

I suspect all those northern lords in Winterfell are just setting Roose up. The key piece of evidence to support this is that the Cerwyns are there. The Cerwyns are next-door neighbors to the Starks- they would certainly recognize both Arya and Jeyne. They are simply playing along until Roose weakens himself by sending away some of his forces. They will then fall on the remaining Dreadfort men, with the help of the men coming in through the crypts.

The important crypt will be Lyanna's. It may contain a letter for Jon, Dark Sister, a dragon egg, and/or possibly Rhaegar's harp.

Crypts are not passageways. The idea of a secret route into Winterfell through the crypts is still no more than speculation. Even if a secret route does exist it would seem unlikely non-Starks would know it - else it would have been blocked up long ago. Lady Dustin did not even know the location of the official, non-secret, entrance to the crypts, why think that she or her allies know the location of a secret entrance outside the walls of Winterfell?

I agree with the idea that many of the northern lords are only biding time before turning away from Roose - it's the proposed method ingress I object to. Remember though that most of these northerners cannot openly act against Bolton because they still have family being held hostage in the south - Manderly is able to be reckless because he already has his most important (maybe even only?) captured relative ransomed and returned. I think that is what Reed is doing(with Mormont and Glover), preparing to spring the northerners from captivity when they are being moved from the Twins to KL, which will allow the northerners at Winterfell to act.

[Ser Pink of Floyd]

I read Dustin as 1 of 2 things.

She does indeed hate Ned Stark for the reasons she gives in the books and perhaps had hoped (somehow) Ned's bones had gotten back to the Winterfell crypts prior to Bolton occuping the castle.

Or, as GRRM would put it, the whole 'hatred' is a mummers farce, to get the Boltons & Freys into believing she is onside with them. Of that was the case, perhaps having Theon (whose spent a year or 2 as a Bolton captive) take her to the crypts himself was a way of her to try get some subtle way into finding where his loyalty lies or to get into. I dont know, but I do think people are correct in thinking whatside of the fence she's on is going to become more apparent in the coming book.

[Ludd]

Lady Dustin is a very strange character. Her smile being like Ramsay's makes me think she is Bolton not Stark.

Question is who are she and Bolton really working for.

Now we have lots of heresy threads arguing that the Starks are somehow linked to the others . Not sure on the Starks but I suspect that Bolton, and Lady Dustin and Craster are worshipers of "the Others."

[Lion of Judah]

I don't think Lady Dustin is too trustworthy or she at least has little to no love for Ned Stark. She said something to the effect that she was planning on stealing Ned's bones before they got to Winterfell so her dogs could eat them out of anger for taking her husband to his death.

I do wonder what she wanted to see in the crypts thoughs...

She may be using the idea of hating Ned as an excuse to keep Roose at bay. Her grudge seems a bit petty to be quite honest, and a woman in her position doesn't stay there by harboring open resentment to your overlord. Something else is at play with her and keep in mind she has no love for the Freys, but yet she breaks bread with them.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Crypts are not passageways. The idea of a secret route into Winterfell through the crypts is still no more than speculation.

That's true, of course. But in aGoT, Bran specifically says that the crypts are "...longer than Winterfell itself." (from the chapter when Luwin, Osha, and Bran go down into the Crypts and find Rickon.) Not to mention the unexplored lower levels.

Even if a secret route does exist it would seem unlikely non-Starks would know it - else it would have been blocked up long ago. Lady Dustin did not even know the location of the official, non-secret, entrance to the crypts, why think that she or her allies know the location of a secret entrance outside the walls of Winterfell?

The existence of a secret tunnel into Winterfell would of course be a carefully guarded secret of the Starks. It would usually be known only by the Lord of Winterfell and his heir, I suppose. (Robb wasn't old enough to be told, yet.) My hypothesis is that Ned told Howland Reed when they interred Lyanna, since Reed knew his other secret (R+L=J) as well. Lady Dustin has simply been given an instruction by the leader of the Northern Conspiracy, Wyman Manderly, to make sure the crypt door can be opened. She doesn't need to know where the outside entrance is.

Yeah, it's all speculation. Speculation is fun.

[GoldenVale]

I have seen people mention that there may be clues in the crypts. I think it's more than a mere clue, Ned hid evidence of his promise to Lyanna in his own crypt, a letter of explanation (possibly one written to Jon, another to Catlyn) only to be revealed after his death. Jon had nightmares about the crypt. Abel's "washerwomen" wanted Theon to show them the crypts. They could have been put up to that by Melisandre. Further, after the tower of joy, Ned heads to starfall to return the sword. This is where wylla is. Next he heads to return Willam Dustin's horse to Lady dustin. Presumably he has Jon with him, possibly even wylla (as his real mother or as wet nurse). Then Ned returns to Winterfell.

Lady Dustin makes Theon take her to the crypts. It could be that she knows something from something Wylla says, or just mothers intuition. Either way, she may suspect something is fishy. Where else would Ned hide something than in his own crypt? I think she returns to the crypt at a later time, finds out what Ned promised Lyanna, which leads to the pink letter.

Whether R+L=J is true or not this can apply. One thing for sure, there has been alot of interest in the crypts. Something is there.

Why would Ned leave a clue to whatever it was he promised Lyanna if the point was to keep the secret to his grave anyway?

And even if he wanted to leave a clue why would he leave it in the one place no one would likely even think of looking?

I don't think Lady Dustin is too trustworthy or she at least has little to no love for Ned Stark. She said something to the effect that she was planning on stealing Ned's bones before they got to Winterfell so her dogs could eat them out of anger for taking her husband to his death.

I do wonder what she wanted to see in the crypts thoughs...

I always wondered if it was the place Brandon "bloodied his sword" with her. The crypts seem like a good, secluded place for some randy young adults to do something that they know will get them in trouble and not get caught.

[Ludd]

In GoT the kids played ghosts is the crypt. Jon dressed up as a ghost - foreshadowing!!!!!!

The ice eyes of the Kings followed Ned

[Stafford1729]

For my money, I think Jon Snow will eventually find a sword intended for him in Winterfell's crypts.

I think the choice of which sword to wield provides a nice little bit of internal conflict - he's forsaken his family, and his past, and sworn his sword (figuratively speaking) to the Night's Watch, and was rewarded with Longclaw, a nice little hint at Mormont replacing Jon's father (Never mind who it is) in Jon's mind.

So, does he wield the sword of his family, or that of the watch? Thrilling stuff.

So, if Jon Snow finds a sword in the dark, which sword is it? And, supposing he finds it, how on earth would he know which sword it is? I don't know if there's ever any mention of any identifying details present on these swords.

He could stumble across Dark Sister, Dawn, heck, maybe even Brightroar, and wouldn't really know.

Which is frustrating as anything for readers dying to hear more about Jon Snow's murky ancestry, and probably very amusing for George.

[Arlan of Pennytree]

I think Lady Dustin is speaking truthfully when she says she hates the Starks. She may be important later on, but I don't see her being a secret agent for the Starks and I CERTAINLY don't see Manderly telling her his plans about Rickon. I'm pretty sure the people that know about that are Robett Glover, Manderly, and Davos.. that's about it.

Yup, she's a hater. . .But why would that hatred lead her to the crypts? I don't think it was to spit on Brandon's tomb. The Pink Letter is the huge clue here. Someone is trying to lure Jon to Winterfell, but why? He's LC of the Nights Watch, can't have a title or hold lands, so why does Lady D (if she's the author) impersonate Ramsay? If she found something in the tombs, how did she know to even look there?

Another possible scenario is that she is in league with Mance and searching for the Horn of Joramun. Some Stark king defeated Joramun, he could have brought his horn back to Winterfell to keep it from being blown again (and waking giants). We know Mance was searching for it, but I don't think he found it. The horn that was recovered in Mance's tent was a giants horn, not a horn to wake them.

Any way you look at it, it only deepens the mystery surrounding the crypts and what secret(s) they hold.

[addicted to snow]

The part where Ramsay is threatening to make a pair of boots out of Lady Dustin and to kill the Stark boys again.Roose chides him that he will lose all Northern support apart from Lady Dustin.

He's shrewd enough to know who's on his side by threat or by allegiance,and he firmly puts Lady D in the latter category,ahead of even the Freys.

That's gotta say somethin'.

ETA-I'm agreeing with your point about Manderly,in case it looks like I'm arguing!

I'm afraid that both Roose & yourself have totally misjudged Lady Dustin… But I did too at first… Lady Dustin is in league with Manderly, Glovers, etc...

Other than being kin, I do not know for certain why Roose respects her so much… My personal belief is that she is a religious leader for the Old Gods…

[Hippocras]

1. Lady Dustin's story doesn't add up. She loved her nephew who was likely murdered by Ramsay, and her sister also died suspiciously. Murder outweighs some bones of a man who wasn't even the one she wanted to marry. She is probably TERRIFIED of the Boltons and only pretending loyalty to them. Besides, house Ryswell's sigil is a horse and the horse was a special wedding gift. Returning it is like giving Grey Wind to Sansa, had he survived.

2. She gave her speech of supposed Stark hatred to Reek, who she was testing to see how much he was Ramsay's creature. Interestingly, she came to the conclusion that Theon loved the Starks and asked him why. That says to me that the trip to the crypts was at least in part about figuring out where Theon really stood. I believe it was after this interview that he was recruited to help fArya. So, that seems to suggest that she was actually working with Mance and co. to decide if they should seek Theon's help. Theon sees Rickard Ryswell, Barbrey's brother, with one of the washerwomen - which may be how plans were spreading around.

3. People worried about too many Northern houses being loyal to the Starks forgot about the Karstarks. Lady Dustin being secretly loyal to Starks or at least pragmatic and betting the Starks are better for her than the Boltons doesn't mean there is no serious opposition to Starks.

[Driesel Snow]

1. Lady Dustin's story doesn't add up. She loved her nephew who was likely murdered by Ramsay, and her sister also died suspiciously. Murder outweighs some bones of a man who wasn't even the one she wanted to marry. She is probably TERRIFIED of the Boltons and only pretending loyalty to them. Besides, house Ryswell's sigil is a horse and the horse was a special wedding gift. Returning it is like giving Grey Wind to Sansa, had he survived.

2. She gave her speech of supposed Stark hatred to Reek, who she was testing to see how much he was Ramsay's creature. Interestingly, she came to the conclusion that Theon loved the Starks and asked him why. That says to me that the trip to the crypts was at least in part about figuring out where Theon really stood. I believe it was after this interview that he was recruited to help fArya. So, that seems to suggest that she was actually working with Mance and co. to decide if they should seek Theon's help. Theon sees Rickard Ryswell, Barbrey's brother, with one of the washerwomen - which may be how plans were spreading around.

3. People worried about too many Northern houses being loyal to the Starks forgot about the Karstarks. Lady Dustin being secretly loyal to Starks or at least pragmatic and betting the Starks are better for her than the Boltons doesn't mean there is no serious opposition to Starks.

:agree:

[ReRe]

I have seen people mention that there may be clues in the crypts. I think it's more than a mere clue, Ned hid evidence of his promise to Lyanna in his own crypt, a letter of explanation (possibly one written to Jon, another to Catlyn) only to be revealed after his death. Jon had nightmares about the crypt. Abel's "washerwomen" wanted Theon to show them the crypts. They could have been put up to that by Melisandre. Further, after the tower of joy, Ned heads to starfall to return the sword. This is where wylla is. Next he heads to return Willam Dustin's horse to Lady dustin. Presumably he has Jon with him, possibly even wylla (as his real mother or as wet nurse). Then Ned returns to Winterfell.

Lady Dustin makes Theon take her to the crypts. It could be that she knows something from something Wylla says, or just mothers intuition. Either way, she may suspect something is fishy. Where else would Ned hide something than in his own crypt? I think she returns to the crypt at a later time, finds out what Ned promised Lyanna, which leads to the pink letter.

Whether R+L=J is true or not this can apply. One thing for sure, there has been alot of interest in the crypts. Something is there.

@phishphan,

Thanks for the interesting comments. I do agree that the crypts will be important, since they are mentioned numerous times by characters, both in visits, as well as in dreams. Jon, in particular, is afraid to enter the Winterfell crypts because he fears what he may find. So, perhaps there is some evidence attesting to Jon's parentage. Your theory about it being hidden in Ned's crypt is brilliant. This is a secret he would take with him to the grave. Therefore, though, I doubt if he told Wylla, since he wouldn't even tell Catelyn or Jon.

As for Lady Dustin's visit to the crypts...it is curious that she would ask Theon to locate them for her. However, I don't think Lady Dustin has any real knowledge. Instead, I believe her visit to the crypts was just Martin's vehicle for remarking (once again) about the missing swords. A Stark must be buried with his sword, or else his ghost will not rest. Considering the title of "The Ghost of WInterfell" in ADWD, I think that Martin is just providing the foreshadowing necessary for its/their arrival in the plot. (There are three missing swords: Ned's, Brandon's, and Rickard's). Anyway, that's my take.....and I think it would be AWESOME if that occurred.

Thanks for the conversation.

[ReRe]

While she's down in the crypts Lady Dustin makes a throwaway line about how two of the stone Starks are missing their swords. Now this means nothing to Theon,but we the reader know the reason why the swords are missing is that Bran and Hodor took them when they were hiding in the crypts back in ACoK.

However the swords were mentioned before in ADwD when Lord Manderley introduces Davos to Wex who recounts his story about seeing Bran and Rickon and their companions leaving the crypts. Now the two swords again are a tiny detail amongst the rest of the story.

However lets say purely hypothetically Lord Manderley has told Lady Dustin Wex's story too, now when she goes down to the crypts and sees that two of the swords are indeed missing does that make her more inclined to believe the story and its implications? Those being that her Stark lords may well be alive.

I think the entire point of Lady Dustin's visit to the crypts was to remark about the three missing swords taken by Osha, Bram, and Merra. The missing swords are the point. (Pardon the pun.) A Stark cannot rest without his sword; that's why they are buried with them.(COK)

[ReRe]

Well, thanks for all of the excellent commentary. Although we can agree to disagree on some points, I think we all believe that the crypts are an important plot element.

All I can add is:

1. "Winter is coming," and who knows that better than the Starks?

2. Reading this series is similar to playing "Hearts." One never knows when that damn Queen of Spades is likely to make an appearance, thereby spoiling a brilliant game.

3. Martin "betta get on offa that thing" and finish his damned books. "Winter is coming" for him, too.

[Original Ned's Bones]

I felt it was obvious that Lady Dustin was there to verify Wat's story for Manderly. She was hedging by telling Theon about her hatred for the Starks. The best lies contain some truth, so she probably does have some resentment. Lord Dustin was one of the nost loyal, trusted companion of Ned. I don't think he picked his other six companions lightly when he went to the TOJ. I think it's going to be awesome when Lady D, Manderly, and the other secret Stark loyalists strike when the time is ripe.

[Starkfaithful85]

I think Lady Dustin is speaking truthfully when she says she hates the Starks. She may be important later on, but I don't see her being a secret agent for the Starks and I CERTAINLY don't see Manderly telling her his plans about Rickon. I'm pretty sure the people that know about that are Robett Glover, Manderly, and Davos.. that's about it.

I believe the umbers know about it...the umber inside of winterfell during aryas wedding is accompanied by old and grey men. we know from the northern clans that it is tradition for the old men of the clan or family to leave during winter to allow the young to have more food...these men were brought inside winterfell to die in my opinion

[Ser Furious]

I cant believe no one has said this yet, but isnt it obvious that Lady Dustin's motives for going down into the crypt were to see Lyanna's statue? Its well known that Arya looks like Lyanna so that would be a good way to check on if Jeyne was the real Arya or not.

[Arlan of Pennytree]

Ned has honor. Dawn belongs to House Dayne. He would have left it there.

(SEE BELOW)

[Arlan of Pennytree]

The Hodor part was a joke. I was just thinking that if Ned really did bring Dawn to Winterfell he probably store it in the crypts. If Jon is the next Sword of the Morning that would explain why Ned took Dawn to Winterfell.

Dawn is the wrong sword. . .Dark Sister, maybe. Dark Sister is a Targaryen blade, and was carried by one of the OG three heads of the dragon, Visenya T, although Bloodraven was the last to possess it. At the Wall, btw. . .