Ned's crypt, Lady Dustin, Pink letter

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Dawn is the wrong sword. . .Dark Sister, maybe. Dark Sister is a Targaryen blade, and was carried by one of the OG three heads of the dragon, Visenya T, although Bloodraven was the last to possess it. At the Wall, btw. . .

All of these swords are wrong. None belonged to the Starks. Ice, which has been missing for a very long time, would be the only one, I think. Though how Ice went from placed on a statues knees to missing???

I don't know if Dark Sister would have been given to BR. He was pulled from the dungeons to send to the Wall. Though if somehow he did posses it on his trip north, I believe it would be in the Singers cave.

More on topic, I think Dustin wanted to see if swords were missing. That was the reason (partly) for the trip to the crypts.

[Ninerings]

All of thes Though how Ice went from placed on a statues knees to missing???

Forged into Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper..

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Forged into Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper..

Yes Ned's Ice is now those swords. I meant the original Ice that is gone

[Edmure's Floppy Fish]

I cant believe no one has said this yet, but isnt it obvious that Lady Dustin's motives for going down into the crypt were to see Lyanna's statue? Its well known that Arya looks like Lyanna so that would be a good way to check on if Jeyne was the real Arya or not.

First time I have heard this reasoning. I like it! I'm not sure because I haven't read the books in a while but I believe she hints at FArya being an imposter while in the Crypts. Something to the affect "they wouldn't ignore Ned's little girl's screams" or something like that.

She could have been comparing FArya to Lyanna and checking the missing swords. Manderly could have brought her up to speed in Rickon being alive and she needed evidence that Arya is fake and proof Bran/Rickin hid in the crypts.

I think this is the reasoning that I'm going with! She knows if Arya is a fake the Boltons claim to Winterfell is gone and she won't end up on the losing side if she backs the true Stark, Rickon. This explains her attitude change when questioning Theon.

[Seeker in the Crypts]

Yup, she's a hater. . .But why would that hatred lead her to the crypts? I don't think it was to spit on Brandon's tomb. The Pink Letter is the huge clue here. Someone is trying to lure Jon to Winterfell, but why? He's LC of the Nights Watch, can't have a title or hold lands, so why does Lady D (if she's the author) impersonate Ramsay? If she found something in the tombs, how did she know to even look there?

Another possible scenario is that she is in league with Mance and searching for the Horn of Joramun. Some Stark king defeated Joramun, he could have brought his horn back to Winterfell to keep it from being blown again (and waking giants). We know Mance was searching for it, but I don't think he found it. The horn that was recovered in Mance's tent was a giants horn, not a horn to wake them.

Any way you look at it, it only deepens the mystery surrounding the crypts and what secret(s) they hold.

ASOS - Sansa, Winterfell, and the reference to Giants . After Robert Arryn's Giant doll is destroyed by Sansa Lord robert screams. "You killed him". He collapses onto the snow castle shattering the towers and bridges on all sides.

Later, he whispers, "A giant, it was a giant hurt the castle." Sansa contemplates the ruins of Winterfell. The snow has stopped, it is colder than before. A mad rage seizes her, she picks up a branch and smashes the doll's head down on top of it, then plants the branch atop the shattered gatehouse of the snow castle.

Little finger laughs and says "If the tales be true, that's not the first giant to end up with his head on Winterfell's walls."

"Those are only stories," Sansa said.

Will Sansa find the horn at Winterfell?

[jabulaniman]

Reading through all this insanely intricate and complex speculation and just thinking "damn, asoiaf is simply amazing. grrm is a genius.". And don't even get me started on Heresy.

I think the bottom line is that Dustin if she isn't in league with Manderly already, she will be when the time comes and the Boltons/Freys are destroyed. Oh, and the Boltons/Freys WILL be destroyed. Count on it, be it from Stannis or the Reed/Manderly/Northern Conspiracy, their demise is imminent.

Then there is also the possibility of a Lady Dustin-Mance Rayder collaboration but personally I prefer Dustin and Mance being seperate powers.

"The north remembers.."

Hyped for tWoW? Check, check fkin CHECK.

[ValyrianCode]

Ser Furious's reasoning on Lady Dustin going into the crypts is spot in in my opinion. The statues in the crypts are essentially the Stark Family Photo Album. If I wanted to confirm someone has "Stark Features",as Arya is commonly known to have and fArya should lack, this is first place I'd go. If this is the case, Lady Dustin either wants to form an alliance with Manderly or get a clue how deep in she is being in league with the Boltons.

[bemused]

To echo Ibbison, speculation is fun.. But not only fun. Hints should be acknowledged.I mean, how many hints do you write off because they could be something else, before you say "Hold on ...that's x many hints, maybe I should pay attention, here." ...The tunnel leading to the crypts is speculative, of course , but I feel very sure it will pan out.

Major Clues :

1. Bran's thoughts in his opening chapter of AGoT plant the idea that there are more secret passages...He thinks he knows all WF's secrets, but he's a child, so we know there could really be more. He shares a name with Bran the Builder, who would know all the secrets if he did build WF. (He is also thought to have built the Wall)

2. I believe we get what will prove to be a case of foreshadowing /mini parallel in the holdfast where Yoren makes his stand . Here the drama centers around Arya and the others escaping through the tunnel , but it was first discovered at the lakeside , and followed through to emerge inside the barn , reminding us tunnels are a way in, not just a way out. ...ACoK

3. Ygritte tells Jon the story of Bael the Bard , which may or may not be true ... But it raises some questions .. How Bael and his love stay hidden down there for the better part of a year ? How did they feed themselves, bathe , etc. etc.? There must be access to some human comforts down there , not just tombs , including a way for him to get out and forage. ...ACoK

4. At the Nightfort we see the Black Gate. Anyone but a black brother could be standing right in front of it and not know it was there. It won't open until the brother repeats his vow ..or at least the important bits ( I assume, the parts that are directly connected to the magic of the Wall ) ...ASoS

5. Mance, very familiar with the Bael story , thinks Theon probably used a secret way in/out to take the castle and wants Theon to lead the spearwives to the crypts. ...ADWD

6. Someone went to the trouble to rebury the entrance to the crypts after Bran and Rickon left. Hodor had pushed that door all the way open , dislodging all the rubble, in the process. ...ADWD

7. The poor bloody "squatters".. OK. they may have reburied the crypts, but why would they do that while leaving bodies lying around ...except in the godswood ( apparently, they ain't a-skeered of no ghosts). Theon notices that beyond the confines of the godswood ... Drifts of dirty snow had piled up against the walls, filling every nook and corner. Some were so high they hid the doors behind them.Under the snow lay grey ash and cinders, and here and there a blackened beam or a pile of bones adorned with scraps of skin and hair.

Consider this...

All about the yard, dead men hung half-frozen at the end of hempen ropes, swollen faces white

with hoarfrost. Winterfell had been crawling with squatters when Bolton’s van had reached the castle. More than two dozen had been driven at spearpoint from the nests they had made amongst the castle’s half-ruined keeps and towers. The boldest and most truculent had been hanged, the rest put to work.... ...When the work was done, Lord Bolton hanged the workers. True to his word, he showed them mercy and did not flay a one.

...Why were any of them bold or truculent at all ? They were maybe 30 strong and here was a Lord at the head of an army coming down on them. Why weren't they headed for the underbrush, or the hills ? If they were real squatters, why is it no women or children seem to be among them ?

They seem more like guards and lookouts to me...and as far as we can see, the one thing that had been guarded or protected ( that they were willing to give their lives to protect ) is the entrance to the crypts.

8. When Theon takes Barbrey to the crypts ... Her serjeant had to go find an axe before he could pull it open, hinges screaming, to reveal stone steps spiraling down into darkness. ... and... “The steps go farther down,” observed Lady Dustin. “There are lower levels. Older. The lowest level is partly collapsed, I hear. I have never been down there.” He pushed the door open and led them out into a long vaulted tunnel, where mighty granite pillars marched two by two into blackness.

In ADWD,"Theon" ( the escape chapter ) we read..

He and Robb had fought many a heroic battle on these steps, slashing at one another with wooden swords. Good training, that; it brought home how hard it was to fight your way up a spiral stair against determined opposition. Ser Rodrik liked to say that one good man could hold a hundred, fighting down.

I don't know about you, but my mind instantly went .. except if the fighters coming up had a couple of inside men at the top to prevent anyone from taking up the defensive position. ( Perhaps Barbrey's men or some Ryswells ?)

Other interesting bits..

A note on Mysterious Disappearing Swords.. we see Bran, Meera and Osha take swords. Later, we learn Hodor had taken one as well . That's 4 missing swords. Then, in the Theon chapter from TWoW ,

Theon thinks -

there were four, or was it five - swords missing. Is five correct ? If so, who took it and when? .. NB - Theon's other estimates in this chapter, Roose's numbers vs. Stannis', seem fairly accurate.

Lady Barbrey.. I won't go into all my Barbrey theory here, but I believe she was already working with Manderly (GNC). She gets the crypts open, but she doesn't need to look at statues to judge whether Jeyne is Arya or not. She's known many Starks, including Lyanna, who Arya is supposed to resemble. And I don't think she's there to confirm Wex's story..Wex may be telling the truth to Manderly , but Manderly is not necessarily telling all the truth to Davos.

When Osha left, White harbour had been mentioned as a possible refuge. She leaves out the East gate, saying she'll follow the Kingsroad for a bit. The East gate leads to the King's Gate which leads to the arm of the Kingsroad heading south. As Bran and co. were quickly observed by the clans, it seems likely Osha and Rickon could easily have been discovered and helped on their way by the Umber/ Manderly men working on the secret navy. I think it much less likely that she would leave heading south, then change her mind and swing north, with Rickon and Shaggydog in tow , Wex tagging behind ...and get all the way up to where she could cross (how?) to Skagos ... without her discovering Wex, or without them all being discovered by unfriendly eyes... So I don't think Barbrey was just counting swords in the crypts.

I think her main purpose was to get the crypts opened and I think there's a hint at more, in the fact that she shows a curiosity about the lower levels. She warns Theon to hold his tongue. The easiest way for him to do that is not to mention their little trip at all, if it's just some random person asking. She knows that if Ramsay or Roose asked , he'd never be able to keep quiet , hence the whole "I hate Ned" story.

I agree with Hippocras that the spearwives provide a good way to pass information ...including the older Myrtle, who, posing as the kind of "washerwoman" that may even do some washing, would also have access to Barbrey, as well as the men, and as we see, to serving women's clothing . (See Theon's mental dissertation on "washerwomen")

But, though I think Barbrey is aware of Mance's mission and would help Mance where she could, she's not there primarily to aid him . If she was, the spearwives would not have needed to continue asking Theon to show them the crypts after her visit. She could have told them. This suggests to me that she doesn't want them poking around down there, perhaps getting in the way of something more important. And she hasn't revealed that something to Mance.( I do buy redriver's ID of Myrtle as the Liddle, and obviously ,that Barbrey knows it. I think Myrtle is there to make sure Mance doesn't inadvertently spoil any pre-existing GNC plans)

Ned and Howland.. I think Ned might have trusted Howland enough to tell him , if necessary, but I can't really see how it would be .. To not tell Cat or Robb when he left would have been negligent on Ned's part, since they would be the ones in need of escape, if it came down to it. Howland could hardly advise them from Greywater Watch. Ned was in the Vale when Rickard and Brandon went to KL,wasn't he ?.. so I don't think Ned could have known, and in fact, there may be reason to believe that no Starks have known about it for hundreds , if not thousands of years.

IMO, the source for the knowledge of the passage has to be the Children and Bloodraven and the one person they could have told would be Benjen.

I think some magic similar to the Black Gate must be involved, that only responds to a Stark. As the NW must recite the relevant part of their oath to open the gate, perhaps the Starks must repeat something as well ..e.g. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell"..

But there are still questions.. I know the Nightfort has been abandoned for a long time, but has it never been inspected ? We know that before the NW numbers fell so low, there would have been patrols along the outside of the wall, work parties keeping the trees back etc...yet the Watch itself appears to be unaware of the existence of the gate. ... Perhaps even for the NW, it can only be found if you're looking for it..if you know it's there somewhere.

The same goes for WF... Bran wouldn't have been the first young Stark to explore the castle for secrets. Surely some would have tried to see if the lowest level of the crypts had really collapsed, or some Stark might have been riding or hunting in the vicinity of the outside gateway.

So, perhaps the magic only stirs when the opposing magic of the Others is stirring.

I don't think we've been given enough to know exactly how it works , but there's enough, IMO , to suggest there's something there that will work if a Stark looks for it.

The risk in a Stark leading a number of fighting men through would be slim to none , since they couldn't find it on their own again, anyway.

This is not in-text evidence, but it certainly tickled and encouraged me..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXLYSnMIrXM

At about 1:01:00 George says Winterfell is his favorite castle and though a simple design, all his castles are built on a grand scale ( and his editor comments ..because they also go down.. ;) .. he agrees.) ..and at about 1:04:00 , his editor asks why both authors seem to like tunnels and secret passages so much.. GRRM says "What can I say , they're cool.." and goes on to say he also likes caves, where you could find yourself in a place no-one else has ever been. .. I think finding yourself in a place no-one has been for thousands of years is pretty exciting, too.

[cassidyaj]

I cant believe no one has said this yet, but isnt it obvious that Lady Dustin's motives for going down into the crypt were to see Lyanna's statue? Its well known that Arya looks like Lyanna so that would be a good way to check on if Jeyne was the real Arya or not.

Wow! I never thought of that but that makes so much sense! She definitely is a sneaky lady! (in a good way i think)

[bemused]

Wow! I never thought of that but that makes so much sense! She definitely is a sneaky lady! (in a good way i think)

As I just said upthread.. Barbrey Dustin knew Lyanna personally. Why on earth would she need to look at Lyanna's statue ?

“Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I’d later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two..."

Obviously, Lyanna was also a fairly frequent visitor (though not as frequent as Brandon), or the comparison could not be made. Barbrey certainly knew her and they may even have been quite close friends.

I'm sure she knew Jeyne was an imposter from the first moment she saw her .. not to mention that she had Jeyne in her custody until the wedding, and could pick up on any little mistakes or hesitations.

[ValyrianCode]

I'll agree with your thoughts bemused; however it has been a lot of years since lady Dustin has seen Lyanna. Maybe, as you aptly suggest, her time with Jeyne has made her suspicious, but not 100% sure. I mean all that's on the line here is being flayed alive right?....Additionally, the other lords present may not have know Lyanna so personally as you suggest Lady Dustin did, something only implicit in the text. You want proof to stand against the Dreadfort which they all fear, here is literally rock solid proof that this little girl isn't Arya.

[Fiery Heart]

I've just finished A Dance with Dragons. Glad to join some discussion on the forum now! This thread caught my eye, so thought I'd share this thought on the Winterfell crypt scene. As I interpreted it; Lady Dustin went to the crypt primarily to examine the statue of Ned Stark, to study the likeness of his face. Her doing this was emphasised, as was her deciding to take one last look before leaving. I assumed this was because she doubted the authenticity of the fake Arya Stark; studying the face on the statue would allow her to confirm if she was truly the daughter of Ned Stark.

[Arya Havinfun]

I've just finished A Dance with Dragons. Glad to join some discussion on the forum now! This thread caught my eye, so thought I'd share this thought on the Winterfell crypt scene. As I interpreted it; Lady Dustin went to the crypt primarily to examine the statue of Ned Stark, to study the likeness of his face. Her doing this was emphasised, as was her deciding to take one last look before leaving. I assumed this was because she doubted the authenticity of the fake Arya Stark; studying the face on the statue would allow her to confirm if she was truly the daughter of Ned Stark.

I doubt that assuring herself of Ned Stark's lack of resemblance to fArya had anything to do with that visit to the crypts. I think she was there to see Brandon's statue, much like Robert Baratheon was eager to see Lyanna's statue when he came to Winterfell.

Both of these people had loved young Starks and lost out due to bad luck and circumstances. But while Robert's memory of romantic love may have been somewhat delusional, I think there was something more practical to Lady Dustin's visit down that romantic memory lane.

I think she was scoping out the missing swords situation as much as she was taking a sentimental journey. She strikes me as someone who knows something about the magical properties of Winterfell, and the problems that may "arise" when there's no living Stark there.

Also, there's some hint of magical doings being possible:

Quotes:

Bran saw eyes like green fire, a flash of teeth, fur as black as the pit around them. Maester Luwin yelled and threw up his hands. The torch went flying from his fingers, caromed off the stone face of Brandon Stark, and tumbled to the statue’s feet, the flames licking up his legs. In the drunken shifting torchlight, they saw Luwin struggling with the direwolf, beating at his muzzle with one hand while the jaws closed on the other. “Summer!” Bran screamed.

And Summer came, shooting from the dimness behind them, a leaping shadow. He slammed into Shaggydog and knocked him back, and the two direwolves rolled over and over in a tangle of grey and black fur , snapping and biting at each other, while Maester Luwin struggled to his knees, his arm torn and bloody. Osha propped Bran up against Lord Rickard’s stone wolf as she hurried to assist the maester. In the light of the guttering torch, shadow wolves twenty feet tall fought on the wall and roof.

<snip>

Bran had never seen Maester Luwin look so uncertain before. Blood dripped down his arm where Shaggydog had shredded the wool of his sleeve and the flesh beneath. “Osha, the torch,” he said, biting through his pain, and she snatched it up before it went out. Soot stains blackened both legs of his uncle’s likeness. “That … that beast,” Luwin went on, “is supposed to be chained up in the kennels.” Rickon patted Shaggydog’s muzzle, damp with blood. “I let him loose. He doesn’t like chains.” He licked at his fingers.

Martin, George R.R. (2003-01-01). A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One (p. 709-710). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Only a little farther on, three tombs were closely grouped together. That was where they halted. “Lord Rickard,” Lady Dustin observed, studying the central figure. The statue loomed above them— long-faced, bearded, solemn. He had the same stone eyes as the rest, but his looked sad. “He lacks a sword as well.” It was true. “Someone has been down here stealing swords. Brandon’s is gone as well.” “He would hate that.” She pulled off her glove and touched his knee, pale flesh against dark stone. “Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it. <snip> He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden’s blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain. “The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together …

Martin, George R.R. (2011-07-12). A Dance with Dragons: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Five (pp. 599-600). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Brandon Stark was a hothead in life, very impulsive and prone to taking direct action without thinking things through. He and Lord Rickard were killed in Kings Landing by King Aerys by fire and strangulation. Brandon's unwarded statue has been splashed with Maester Luwin's blood and blackened by the smoke of a torch. Fire & Blood, yes? And a great Lady who loved him passionately has just visited his grave and stroked his sooty blooded statue while invoking their most intimate experiences together in their youth.

Ya think something could happen?

P.S. Welcome! :cheers:

[Fiery Heart]

Thanks for these insights, very interesting to see deeper into this chapter of the Winterfell story. Great post! Wow, I continue to be amazed at the depth & detail of ASOIAF. Cannot wait for The Winds of Winter.

:cheers:

[Areo Speedwagon]

re-reading the series for the first time, about half-way through Feast.

Something stood out to me as I was reading Clash. At the end of Jon's first (or second) chapter, Mormont is going on about how Jon's brother is not just Lord, but King and everything that means. He then asks Jon what he'll do with that knowledge, more specifically if it will trouble him that singers will sing of everything his brother does, but Jon will live and die in anonymous cold. Jon responds "I'll be troubled. And I'll keep my vows."

The very next page, Catelyn's first chapter, starts with her describing Robb's crown that was made for him, a replica of the ancient crown of the kings of winter. She said that the ancient crown was yielded to Aegon when he landed in the north, but after that, no one knows what happened to it.

My thought was Rhaegar perhaps found it or learned of it and gave it to Lyanna. We don't really know the extent of their relationship, so why not? Maybe Rhaegar was going to give the North it's independence back as part of the "changes" he spoke of.

Regardless, a lot has been made of Jon's parents, Jon and the crypts, etc. I like the idea of Rhaegar's harp being down there as well, but think it would be especially fitting for the ancient crown of the kings of winter to be there when an ancient foe is on the doorstep.

[Hos the Hostage]

If Ned hid something important in Lyanna's crypt, he must have done it himself. If this was the case, the show-Arya telling Tywin her father was a 'stonemason' wouldn't be completely wrong.

[Luddsthirdmorph]

I think there is something ODD about Dustin and always has been.

Why does she always wear Black AND remain celibate ie no remarriage.

There is another character who REFUSES to marry and always wears black.

It is a bit crackpot but is there a secret order of civilians pledged to the NW or at least to fighting the "others."

Or of course more simply were Dustin and Blackfish pledged to one another in some way.

[Arya Havinfun]

I think there is something ODD about Dustin and always has been.

Why does she always wear Black AND remain celibate ie no remarriage.

There is another character who REFUSES to marry and always wears black.

It is a bit crackpot but is there a secret order of civilians pledged to the NW or at least to fighting the "others."

Or of course more simply were Dustin and Blackfish pledged to one another in some way.

I always assumed the Blackfish was probably just a closeted gay and headstrong about being forced into things he didn't agree with, but I kinda like your speculationabout the secret order better, except for the fact we have no indication that Blackfish is in the slightest bit ideological. I don't see the two of them as a romantic pair.

[Luddsthirdmorph]

Arya

I agree that romance is unlikely but it is odd that two celibate characters both choose to wear ONLY black, a colour associated with the NW. I do not go for the "closet gay" stuff because in the era gays married anyway, delivering the heir and some spares. Renley for example.

[Arya Havinfun]

Arya

I agree that romance is unlikely but it is odd that two celibate characters both choose to wear ONLY black, a colour associated with the NW. I do not go for the "closet gay" stuff because in the era gays married anyway, delivering the heir and some spares. Renley for example.

I was just looking, and I don't see where the text says the Blackfish ONLY wore black. The fish on his version of the Tully sigil is black rather than the family's usual white, but that's all I can find on that. Nor is there any indication that he is necessarily celibate, only that he's unmarried.

For that matter, I see no reason to assume that Barbry Dustin is necessarily celibate, either. In her case I suppose it's possible, as highborn women usually have to be particularly circumspect about their reputations.

Renly's a poor example, as he was essentially NOT closeted. He married Margaery and then famously never had sex with her, thus producing no heirs or spares. There's even someplace that suggests his original intention was to get Robert to fall for Margaery and divorce Cersei in Margaery's favor, but obviously that plan didn't work. Renly's lack of consumation of their marriage was so well known she was still considered to be a virgin prior to her wedding to Joffrey, and still a virgin after Joff was killed, so she could marry Tommen. His tender age has still kept her officially virginal, despite the pending trial.

Back to the topic at hand; I don't see the similarities you do between Lady Dustin and Brynden Tully.