Rereading Tyrion III (ACOK)

[Axrendale]

I totally admit I can't find any logical gaps in the scheme, I just don't like the tenor of it. It's so...upbeat.

Well, agree to disagree then. But since ASOIAF is not generally known for its sense of being "upbeat", the few instances where it is so make for a very nice change.

[Tagganaro]

I totally admit I can't find any logical gaps in the scheme, I just don't like the tenor of it. It's so...upbeat.

Yes, I totally feel like it should be accompanied by an 80's soundtrack or something. Eye of the Tiger?

On a more general note, I do think Tyrion is effectively following Tywin's orders. Perhaps this is just a difference of interpretation, but when Tyrion was given "carte blanche" as Lummel said, I thought it was more about reining in Joffrey and Cersei, and less about the "false councilors". In that regard, I think the whole Pycelle situation was an effective exercise of that objective. Pycelle is helping Cersei out, maintaining her iron grip on power that Tywin doesn't want her to have. By imprisoning and shaving Pycelle's beard, Tyrion effectively removes Pycelle from the picture for a while, as Cersei not only loses respect for Pycelle but also receives a loud and clear message from Tyrion.

But yes, I do think that Tyrion was actually sent to King's Landing to fight with Cersei, as Tywin blames her as much as anyone else for the Ned Stark outcome, and knows that her bases of power and influence have been completely ineffective in terms of reining in Joffrey. Tyrion is explicitly sent there to replace those bases with his own that can in actuality "control" Joffrey to prevent a 2nd Ned Stark situation.

[Lummel]

...Is he really though? At the end of the day, the only "risk" for Tyrion that is on the table here is that the SC members will realise that he has decieved them - not something that he is going to lose much sleep over...

Had any two of the councillors been working together or if more than one of them had gone to Cersei then his plotting would have been revealed and they would have been able and motivated to move against Tyrion. Then it might have been Tyrion who was surprised in bed in the middle of the night or Tyrion who was poisoned.

I totally admit I can't find any logical gaps in the scheme, I just don't like the tenor of it. It's so...upbeat.

Agreed, that's why I called it a caper. Tyrion's self satisfaction with his own cleverness really shines through. You can tell he's having fun. :)

Yes, I totally feel like it should be accompanied by an 80's soundtrack or something. Eye of the Tiger?

On a more general note, I do think Tyrion is effectively following Tywin's orders. Perhaps this is just a difference of interpretation, but when Tyrion was given "carte blanche" as Lummel said, I thought it was more about reining in Joffrey and Cersei, and less about the "false councilors". In that regard, I think the whole Pycelle situation was an effective exercise of that objective. Pycelle is helping Cersei out, maintaining her iron grip on power that Tywin doesn't want her to have. By imprisoning and shaving Pycelle's beard, Tyrion effectively removes Pycelle from the picture for a while, as Cersei not only loses respect for Pycelle but also receives a loud and clear message from Tyrion.

But yes, I do think that Tyrion was actually sent to King's Landing to fight with Cersei, as Tywin blames her as much as anyone else for the Ned Stark outcome, and knows that her bases of power and influence have been completely ineffective in terms of reining in Joffrey. Tyrion is explicitly sent there to replace those bases with his own that can in actuality "control" Joffrey to prevent a 2nd Ned Stark situation.

I was thinking the soundtrack might be this. I'm moved by Silverin's perspective that Tyrion is chasing a minnow here and letting the big fish go. The instruction is to reign in Joffrey and kill the false councillors and use them to decorate scenic King's Landing.

[Datepalm]

Agreed, that's why I called it a caper. Tyrion's self satisfaction with his own cleverness really shines through. You can tell he's having fun. :)

I want Tyrion to have fun! I want him to do cartwheels through the streets and fall in love with Julia Roberts, that's all ok! I think my response goes more to others reader response (and my habitual Tyrion bashing, I suppose) where this caper tends to be read quite seriously and positivelyas a sign of Tyrions Skillz at The Game - whatever that means. I feel like we have rather bought what the author is selling us, whareas we should be endlessly suspicious of him. So I tend to see that episode as a sort of gilded age - Tyrion pleased with himself, deluding himself about his own power and capability, and it will all come back to smack him on the face soon.

[Lummel]

Oh well you know if we want to be serious about this he doesn't actually gain that much from it as we'll see in chapters to come. He succeeds over time in annoying Cersei and Littlefinger remains at liberty despite all the problems (and indignities to House Lannister!) that he has caused.

Humiliating Pycelle is very small beer really.

[anonymouseuser]

I want Tyrion to have fun! I want him to do cartwheels through the streets and fall in love with Julia Roberts, that's all ok! I think my response goes more to others reader response (and my habitual Tyrion bashing, I suppose) where this caper tends to be read quite seriously and positivelyas a sign of Tyrions Skillz at The Game - whatever that means. I feel like we have rather bought what the author is selling us, whareas we should be endlessly suspicious of him. So I tend to see that episode as a sort of gilded age - Tyrion pleased with himself, deluding himself about his own power and capability, and it will all come back to smack him on the face soon.

Well off hand I can't think of any of the POV characters who get all their own way all the time; quite the opposite in fact. Isn't that rather the point?

[Tagganaro]

Oh well you know if we want to be serious about this he doesn't actually gain that much from it as we'll see in chapters to come. He succeeds over time in annoying Cersei and Littlefinger remains at liberty despite all the problems (and indignities to House Lannister!) that he has caused.

Humiliating Pycelle is very small beer really.

Well, I agree that it's small beer, and certainly not the big fish, but I think I still stand by it as an effective removal of Pycelle ("a false councilor") from power. It takes a key Cersei ally away in a key time for him to have him.

Btw Lummel, I can totally see Tyrion and Bronn using the nose wiggle sign from The Sting after each letter is planted. I totally see Tyrion walking out of Pycelle's quarters and touching his nose at a passing-by Bronn.

[butterbumps!]

Well off hand I can't think of any of the POV characters who get all their own way all the time; quite the opposite in fact. Isn't that rather the point?

Well, I don't want to speak for Datepalm or Tag, but I think the issue is that Tyrion is indecently pleased with himself. He is so thrilled with himself over what is essentially a fairly fruitless and unnecessarily complicated scheme as though he'd just won a major victory of great merit. To be honest, this scheme as a similar taste as some of Cersei's outrageously complicated plots later on, and their reactions are pretty similar too.

[anonymouseuser]

Well, I don't want to speak for Datepalm or Tag, but I think the issue is that Tyrion is indecently pleased with himself. He is so thrilled with himself over what is essentially a fairly fruitless and unnecessarily complicated scheme as though he'd just won a major victory of great merit. To be honest, this scheme as a similar taste as some of Cersei's outrageously complicated plots later on, and their reactions are pretty similar too.

As opposed to being decently pleased? If nothing else it shows that he's capable of putting one over on both Varys and LF - which as we know is no mean feat. And I disagree that it has anything in common with Cersei's plots which always contain in them the seeds of her own downfall. Robert's death is a case in point. All that needed to happen was for Robert to get so drunk on the doctored wine that he sat down under a tree and dozed off instead of continuing with the hunt. In this plan any result is pretty much guaranteed to leave Tyrion better off than he was before it started. Of course as we all agree it would have been better if he could have trapped LF, but that was just how things played out.

BTW I also had the theme from The Sting running round in my head....great minds eh!

[Natalie_S]

Then, I mean, why shouldn't he be pleased?

He was sent to do perhaps the most dangerous job in Westeros (as his predecessor's fates demonstrate) with no preparation at all (so far his most prominent duty was taking care of the drains in Casterly Rock), not a real army but only some undisciplined wildlings and a sellsword of dubious loyalty, and a great physical disadvantage when it comes to imposing authority.

And yet he managed to come up with some clever plan to secure Dorne's alliance, get rid of an untrustworthy (and fairly useless) member of the Council, show everyone that it's better not to cross him, but without having ordered a single execution.

Perhaps for the first time in his life, he's appointed at something meaningful and is discovering that he's pretty good at it. Instead of being mocked even by his nephew's bodyguard and treated by everyone like a freak, he's listened and respected.

I don't see where the "indecently" comes from.

[Ragnorak]

Axrendale, your synopsis of Tyrion's intent in plotting was perfect. I'd like to throw out a possibility:

Pycelle works for and reports to Tywin. Pycelle sent the contents of the letter to Tywin and would not tell Cersei anything until hearing from Tywin. Varys knew LF wasn't going to Cersei and neither was Pycelle (at least not yet) so it was Varys that told Cersei in order to frame Pycelle. I am undecided about it myself, but thought I'd throw it out there.

I also think when LF finds out the truth of Tyrion's offer that it will be the point where he decides Tyrion is too dangerous. Look at what LF actually did once he had Harrenhal and imagine what he started to set in motion with this offer. How close did Tyrion come to accidentally undoing LF?

[anonymouseuser]

But as Axrendale explained (very clearly, thanks for that) Varys didn't know Myrcella was going to Dorne - he thought the marriage offer was about Tommen. When Cersei confronts Tyrion about it she says very clearly that she wasn't about to ship her daughter off to Dorne.

Although I take your point about LF realising Tyrion might be too dangerous as a result of the plot.

[Ragnorak]

But as Axrendale explained (very clearly, thanks for that) Varys didn't know Myrcella was going to Dorne - he thought the marriage offer was about Tommen. When Cersei confronts Tyrion about it she says very clearly that she wasn't about to ship her daughter off to Dorne.

Although I take your point about LF realising Tyrion might be too dangerous as a result of the plot.

Varys initial scheme with Illyrio was to send in "little mice" to read letters and later transcribe them. It is not beyond the realm of the possible for Varys to know the content of the letter in Pycelle's possession. Based on Tyrion's assumption that Varys is limited to "hearing" he ought to be in the dark about Myrcella-- that may not be the case. Much of GoT makes more sense if Tywin is being fed information from KL. Pycelle dates back to Aerys when Tywin was Hand and we learn later from his advice to Aerys to open the gates that Pycelle is Tywin's pawn. Varys almost certainly knows Pycelle's loyalties since he was also in KL during Aerys reign. I'm not completely sold on the idea, just throwing it out there.

This line seems to sum up KL quite well.

The longer he lived, the more Tyrion realized that nothing was simple and little was true.

The Tyrion/LF exchange is just priceless. They have this back and forth about the dagger, the clans attacking the Vale, Harrenhal, Slynt, and Lysa. As readers we know much of this now but knowing everything just adds so much more to it.

On a first read Jaime and Cersei are still the prime suspects and LF's question makes perfect sense in light of Tyrion's questionable willingness and ability to pin the murder on either one. Knowing Lysa is the actual killer makes the entire exchange that much more layered.

“If I gave her Jon Arryn’s true killer, she might think more kindly of me.”

That made Littlefinger sit up. “True killer? I confess, you make me curious. Who do you propose?”

“—make war on the Starks and Tullys?” Littlefinger shook his head. “There’s the roach in your pudding, Lannister. Lysa will never send her knights against Riverrun.”

I found it interesting that he says Lysa will never order her knights to attack Riverrun but he doesn't include the Starks in that. I wonder if LF was dropping a subtle hint for Tyrion here along the same lines as Tyrions Renly/Stannis thoughts.

You’re a dangerous little man, Lannister.

It seems LF has the same revelation about Tyrion with his offer of Myrcella that Tyrion has about him with the Shireen/Patchface tale. I suspect that being played with the Myrcella offer combined with Slynt going to the Wall and Pycelle ending up in a Black Cell really drive this point home for him.

“Give me a fortnight to conclude my affairs and arrange for a ship to carry me to Gulltown.”

What exactly are those affairs? How much did LF set in motion and how close to being undone was he? The very next chapter is Sansa and the first line is:

Come to the godswood tonight, if you want to go home.

We know later that this is in fact one of LF's "affairs."

[Lummel]

The presence of Pycelle and Varys both on the small council really says more than you'd want to know about King Robert. The portrait that emerges of Pycelle as this aged, oath breaking, Lannister loving figure reminds me of Lady Dustin's question about what families these Maesters belong to.

Agree on the Littlefinger-Tyrion exchange. The true killer of Jon Arryn indeed, no wonder the man sat up, he must have thought that he was going to be presented with a one way ticket to Eastwatch on Sea!

The detail about Sansa is both ironic and telling in how far Lord Baelish is responding to events.

[Foxhound]

There is - if Varys was passing the information to Cersei, she would have also "known" about Tommen being offered to Dorne. If all that Cersei "knew" about was the Myrcella offer, then that would have fingered Littlefinger (pardon the pun).

Even if for some reason Varys had decided to tell Cersei about the "Myrcella to the Vale" offer but kept "Tommen to Dorne" to himself, Tyrion would still have been able to tell, as his sister would have bitten off Baelish's head for cooperating in the plan (another tell would have been whether or not Cersei gained knowledge about Tyrion's offer of Harrenhal - something that Varys might have reported, but which Littlefinger would probably have omitted if he was reporting to the Queen).

I think Varys is smart enough to set Littlefinger up, since he knows what Tyrion told him, and what Tyrion is doing. If he simply told Cersei that Myrcella is going to be sent to the Vale, Tyrion can't know where that information came from. Furthermore, if Cersei hears two contradicting stories, she may figure out what's going on (or Varys could just tell her what Tyrion is doing). In which case her reaction will be different than confronting him with the info she's got.

[Blisscraft]

Don't have anything to add except great posts everyone!

[Ragnorak]

Datepalm, what I liked most about Tyrion's game here was that it wasn't just contrived to out Cersei's informers. The offer to Dorne is a real one and any offer that can make Dorne a possible ally of the Lannisters is a brilliant one. His whole scheme to out Cersei's informants is just done through the delivery of plans he needs to execute anyway. If this was all done to for the exclusive purpose of finding a Cersei informer I'd probably be firmly in your camp on this one.

It is also interesting that "justice" is the element in each offer that he uses to tip the just less than adequate money and politics offers in his favor.

Varys accurately points out that Doran will want the head of the lord that gave the order-- something that will play a huge role in Tyrion's fate one day. Both Tyrion and Varys use the term "honeycomb." I don't specifically recall anyone else using that term, especially when it comes to power. The freckled prostitute last chapter had honeyed hair and a chain of blue flowers, Tyrion's porridge with Pycelle wanted honey (and his egg wanted salt.) A quick search has a number of references to honey in Bran's chapters which is probably noteworthy just not for Tyrion.

He shares a meal with Pycelle and finds the food "wanting." Even the plums were over over done. He also steals a poison made to ruin meals. Despite having the best cook in KL, he hasn't actually enoyed a meal "on screen" since his crabs at the Wall.

Speaking of the Wall we have that bit of irony with Thorne. Mormont sent Thorne because he thought a knight would be better received in the south than a man like Yoren. Yet if it was Yoren, Tyrion would have received him straight away.

[Loras]

Pycelle's beard is also symbolising his wisdom - by removing his beard, Tyrion is effectively removing his 'influence' and showing Pycelle for what he really is - a lickspittle.

I think this is almost crueler than: walls, heads, spikes.

[Datepalm]

It's very GRRM - stripping away images and archetypes (the wise wizardly whitebeard) to reveal something paltry.

[Axrendale]

Had any two of the councillors been working together or if more than one of them had gone to Cersei then his plotting would have been revealed and they would have been able and motivated to move against Tyrion. Then it might have been Tyrion who was surprised in bed in the middle of the night or Tyrion who was poisoned.

I think that you're overshooting the mark with regard to what the consequences would have been if the plot had been uncovered. This is King's Landing after all - if everyone started trying to kill people as soon as they realised that they had been lied to, the place would be a wasteland.

Even if the details of Tyrion's scheme had been uncovered, it would have been extremely unlikely that anything except his pride would have been hurt (at least in the short run). Tyrion already knew that Littlefinger had no regard for his personal wellbeing in any case, and so felt comfortable about decieving him (as we shall see). Varys seems to take Tyrion's trick with extremely good humour. And Pycelle was the only one who was never actually decieved.

As long as he has Bronn and the Mountain tribes (and Pod!) to protect his body, and his father's name to protect his position as Hand, he can be reasonably confident that the immediate dangers of playing a "prank" on the Small Council are unlikely to be great. On the other hand, even if his scheme had not worked out exactly as he had intended it - for instance if it became clear that more than one courtier had gone to Cersei - then he still would have gained invaluable information from the exercise that would have been of use to him going forward.

As far as "game playing" goes, this is clearly an instance of very small risk for potentially very big reward.

Axrendale, your synopsis of Tyrion's intent in plotting was perfect. I'd like to throw out a possibility:

Pycelle works for and reports to Tywin. Pycelle sent the contents of the letter to Tywin and would not tell Cersei anything until hearing from Tywin. Varys knew LF wasn't going to Cersei and neither was Pycelle (at least not yet) so it was Varys that told Cersei in order to frame Pycelle. I am undecided about it myself, but thought I'd throw it out there.

Thank you. :)

I suppose that it is a possibility, but for myself, I don't think that Pycelle would have left a letter as important as the one that he purloined from Tyrion just lying about in the open where someone could come along and read it (or copy it). I assume it would have gone straight into one of his sleeves (as is a Maester's want) until he could deliver it to Cersei. Varys' "little birds" are good, but they aren't omnipotent, any more than Varys himself is omniscient.

I think Varys is smart enough to set Littlefinger up, since he knows what Tyrion told him, and what Tyrion is doing. If he simply told Cersei that Myrcella is going to be sent to the Vale, Tyrion can't know where that information came from. Furthermore, if Cersei hears two contradicting stories, she may figure out what's going on (or Varys could just tell her what Tyrion is doing). In which case her reaction will be different than confronting him with the info she's got.

If Varys did try (and succeeded) in framing Littlefinger, the result would almost certainly have been some kind of public wrath directed at the Master of Coin from the Queen (Cersei never lets things like that go unpunished). Tyrion would have observed this, and drawn conclusions accordingly.

Even if Cersei's reaction had indicated to Tyrion that she gotten hold of more than one of his threads (this would have been indicated simply by her failure to react to one of his ploys in particular), he will still derive information from this. It will automatically implicate Pycelle (who was the only one who could have tripped up Littlefinger and Varys in their assumptions about what Tyrion had told them). In any case, he's been on the scene long enough now to guess that it is extremely unlikely that any of these men are in fact working together, so he takes the chance.

As noted above, this is very much a low risk/high reward move that he's making.