The Queen Regent - Rethinking Cersei Lannister

[Fire Eater]

Nice job, brashcandy, although I still think the younger queen is Dany.

Cersei being confined to the cell shows her character, she tore the first shift they gave her only to become naked and freezing, and afterward wear a shift they give her. She is vindictive and doesn't think things through, and this vindictiveness only results in making her situation worse.

Harys Swyft and Grand Maester Pycelle had abandoned her to captivity and offered the realm to the very men who conspired against her.

She thinks Kevan has conspired against her, showing the extent of her paranoia.

As for Jaime, she is in denial thinking that he hadn't received the letter which is why he didn't come. Jaime was the only person throughout her life she truly trusted, and when she learns that it was Jaime who was behind Tyrion's escape she will stop trusting altogether.

I don't think Kevan is allowing her to remain there, because of Lancel, as revealed in his own POV, he didn't like it but he felt it was necessary; trying to get her out by force would have been a politically risky move.

[SeanF]

I don't think she's wrong about Kevan. Kevan may not want her dead, (if only because it would call Tommen's and Myrcella's legitimacy into question), but he certainly wants her removed from any position of power. And, he is very bitter about her affair with Lancel. So bitter, in fact, that it never occurs to him that it's House Lannister generally, and not just Cersei, that gets dragged through the mud in the next chapter.

[IRON BANK]

over all nice post here are some of my thoughts on cersie are somewhat comical villain she really needs a mentor and lacks any restraint. Cersie: Where to start, incest right off the bat disgusting not even needed, then does it multiple times, justifies it in her own mind and doesn't even try to stop. people argue she tries to protect her children thats a false belief, because the way she brought them in was the most dangerous way possible for a lady in her position illegitimately. She has a duty as a noble woman and cheats on her husband,which you might not hold that much against her but still a bad thing to do considering he's the freaking king of westeros. who despite all his bad traits( by the way aren't even in the same realm of cersies) she schemes and plots to marry any way. you made your bed Cersie literally now lie in it, instead of your brothers who you loved while you pursued Robert. I don't even want to go into leadership capability because if it wasn't for Tyrion, Cersie would have been done a long time ago, Oh screw it why not leadership capability: Cersie seriously thinks letting her future son Joffrey next in line to be king run around aimless, ignorant of compassion and forsight is the best way to go even after what shes been through w/ Robert. she diplayed that several times by siding with him on the way to Kl on the KR, her failure to let Loras or any one train him properly, and a complete lack of and discipinary actions, against teasing Tommen, treating Sansa badly, or being able to lead from small councile venues or direct knowledge of any open book. Cersie also lacks Knowledge when it comes to the history of westeros, she is paranoid and untrusting. When the Tyrells need help protecting Old town which if not done will lead to the reaches demise Cersie does not see the threat. Whwn she exposes herself to her hand maiden and other lovers she does not realize the consequences. When cersie gives the faith back its Army she has not studied the history of westeros and is unaware of the threat. These type of decisions and lack of judgment have put cersie into her current predicament most were salvageable however her lack of foresight and compassion make things worse, I mean honestly even after Joffrey death she had a clear cut chance to start over and simply failed to take a back seat.

[Fire Eater]

ADwD Cersei II:

Plot Summary:

Cersei undergoes the walk of shame, and endures the ridicule of the people of KL. The people of KL mock her and throw food, dung and carcasses at her, so it is clear she is not well loved by the people of KL. We are then introduced to Ser Robert Strong.

Observations:

restless as the caged lions that had lived in the bowels of Casterly Rock when she was a girl, a legacy of her grandfather's time

The lions were remnants of Lord Tytos's time before Tywin became head of House Lannister, and established their current modus operandi. Animals in ASOIAF have come to represent the honor of the houses who display the animal as their sigil. Aerys II is utterly without honor, 100 years after the last dragon died. When Sansa lies in her testimony at Darry, she loses her direwolf, Lady, and lost her honor. Ghost separated from Jon when he feigned defection, and a rift opens between Grey Wind and Robb after Robb breaks his pact with the Freys. By saying the lions were a legacy of her grandfather's time, it is being said that lions are the legacy of a time when the Lannisters had honor.

"That can't be the queen," a boy said, "she's saggy as my mum."

A reference to the story of "The Emperor's New Clothes" where an innocent child points out the truth that the vain emperor isn't wearing any clothes while everyone else is pretending to see them. No one disagreed about the existence of the clothes since they feared being dismissed as a fool, as the conmen who posed as tailors said that only fools and incompetents couldn't see the cloth. Cersei surrounded herself with yes men, plenty who were incompetent, and she dismissed those who disagreed with her, and as Barristan noted the truth wasn't welcome in her court. This is the result of her decisions and not listening to honest counsel from Pycelle.

She limped on leaving a trail of bloody footprints behind her.

Telling that Cersei leaves a trail of blood behind her. Her reign is so far marked by violence.

and for an instant looked so much like Lord Tywin that she stumbled . . . She saw Ned Stark and beside him little Sansa . . . Every child squirming through the crowd become her brother Tyrion, jeering at her as he had jeered when Joffrey died.

The decline of her mental health is becoming more apparent. Tyrion never jeered at her on the night Joffrey died, but he tries to comfort her. Cersei blocks this and has a mismemory that fits the image in her head of Tyrion, making him out to be more of a monster than he really is. She revises history to fit her own narrative.

Ser Robert Strong:

From Machiavelli's The Prince, "That We Must Avoid Being Despised and Hated" :

"Whoever examines in detail the actions of Severus, will find him to have been a very ferocious lion and an extremely astute fox, and will find him to have been feared and respected by all and not hated by the army..."

and "But Antoninus his son...his ferocity and cruelty were so great and unheard of...that he became hated by all the world and began to be feared by those about him..."

Tywin Lannister was called the Lion of CR, and Ned thought that Tywin was "as much a fox as he was a lion." Gregor Clegane was Tywin's top henchman and the one who did Tywin's dirty work. He was representative of the brutal and destructive aspects of Tywin Lannister's reign. Now he has been resurrected and made stronger than before, representing that Cersei in ruling has only managed to revive and amplify the brutal and destructive aspects of her father's reign.

Skuld:

In Norse mythology in The Saga of Hrolf Kraki, Danish king Helgi had laid with an elf, and the elf informed him that she was carrying his child, and that he should stop by this boat house near his home in nine months to pick up his daughter. He didn't and so she was left on his doorstep, and the elves decreed that she would be a curse on his house. Skuld married the Swedish king, Hjorvarth who had been tricked into a becoming a vassal of Hrolf Kraki, Helgi's son and Skuld's half-brother, by accepting a sword from Hrolf. Hjorvarth then had to pay a yearly tribute to Hrolf. She asked her half-brother for a three-year break in tribute-paying, as long as she agreed to pay the full amount at the end of the three year cycle. She used the tribute to amass an army of warriors, norns and monsters.

Meanwhile, Hrolf had grown fat, arrogant and pretentious, no longer questing and warring. Skuld marched her army to Hrolf's capital, and the battle began between Hrolf and Skuld. Skuld sent an enormous boar into the fray, and when Hrolf managed to push her forces back she pulled out her secret weapon: her powers over the forces of life and death. She resurrected her slain warriors and sent them back into the battlefield. She won the battle and Hrolf's kingdom, but her reign proved to be short-lived as she was found to be a poor ruler. She was killed by Hrolf's brothers.

Cersei, like Skuld, proves to be a curse on her father's house. Her brother Jaime became Robert's sworn sword, and it appears the roles of brother and husband are switched for king and vassal. Robert had grown fat and arrogant after the wars were done, and Cersei had been building up a base to take control of Robert's court, and had Robert killed by a boar. Cersei stops repayment of the loans to the IB and the Faith to construct dromonds and build up her own forces. Cersei then manages to resurrect one of her fallen warriors, Gregor. Cersei does prove to be a poor ruler with Robert's brothers fighting against her.

[Ragnorak]

I'm very sorry I somehow missed following this thread in real time. Really nice job everyone.

The last time I reread Cersei's Walk of Shame I saw parallels between her walk and Jaime's dream.

Rereading this time I was mostly struck by the politics. The High Septon has imprisoned the Regent and asserted the Faith's authority over the Crown. Cersei accepting the punishment is publicly accepting the Faith's authority over the Iron Throne. Towards the end of her walk she realizes it was a mistake to be seen publicly in such non-regal humiliating circumstances based on her own public image, but the message the whole walk sends about the Faith vs. the Crown in general is far worse for any future occupier of the Throne.

The High Septon has managed to get the Regent, the Hand, and both sides of the royal family to acquiesce in a very public setting to the fact that he sits in judgment over the King. This new found authority of the Faith is being communicated in direct proportion to Cersei's humiliation. It is a bit of a twist on the Thomas Becket story, but instead of resisting secular courts authority over the clergy this High Septon is asserting ecclesiastical court authority over the nobility. The implications here go beyond just the Iron Throne. I would imagine even the highest lords in the land might find their ability to sit in judgment of the lowest begging brother threatened by this new political dynamic. If this stands, a future Tywin Lannister might find himself deposed by the Faith, or the King at the Faith's demand, for undoing a marriage to a crofter's daughter by a drunken septon. This is no small change in the power dynamic.

Setting aside judgments on The Walk itself, this is a brilliant piece of political theater on the High Septon's part. He used the debt to buy himself an army and then exploited the infighting of the two sides of the royal family to get them to cede a tremendous amount of power to him. Had Cersei stayed in her cell and waited for the Lannister army to return and demand her release, she could have asserted that the High Septon has no authority over the Regent and even refused the trial. It wouldn't have been a simple thing but she could plausibly claim to be wrongfully imprisoned premised on the Faith's lack of authority over a King. The extreme nature of this punishment serves to make clear just how absolute the authority the Faith has over the Crown really is and everyone of substance in this regime acknowledged it publicly by agreeing to this walk.

[Jon Stormcloak]

I would like to point out, that having Jaime as Hand would have been a bad idea because he's starting to distrust Cersei. He wouldn't really care about all the responsibilities anyway. Sure, it's someone she thinks she's close to (even though she really isn't by this point), which would give her peace of mind for the time, but in the long run having someone else, more competent, would have been better.

I also really like the imagery of Cersei cutting herself on the iron Throne. I always took it as a sign that you weren't fit to rule. Like the seat, and thus the position, were rejecting you. Even if it didn't happen in real life (for Cersei, obviously this isn't real), I feel like it still holds the significance.

I can't write much more, I have to get to work. .

[Jon Stormcloak]

I also really like the imagery of Cersei cutting herself on the iron Throne. I always took it as a sign that you weren't fit to rule. Like the seat, and thus the position, were rejecting you. Even if it didn't happen in real life (for Cersei, obviously this isn't real), I feel like it still holds the significance.

We never see Cersei on the Iron Throne. Likely as not, she would cut herself very badly, which, like armidil says, is Westeros' version of The Apprentice. You get cut, likely as not, you suck. This is a pretty solid sign of her incompetence, or at least lack of patience.

Just saying and adding (quite pointlessly actually. Oh well.)

[Mark Antony]

This is a nice thread. I'm starting a feast re-read and i plan on coming back after every time i finish a Cersei chapter, thanks. :)

[Mr Hodor]

Awesome thread. Thanks for the analysis.

[Fire Eater]

Cersei-Macbeth Parallel

Witches and Initial Prophecies

Macbeth visits a trio of witches who give him three pieces of information that at first seem good, but in truth turn out badly: Macbeth will be Thane of Glamis, then Thane of Cawdor followed by King of Scotland. Banquo, who accompanies Macbeth, also receives a prophecy that results in Macbeth killing him.

Cersei comes upon Maggy who gives Cersei three bits of info that seem good but turn out badly: that she will marry the king (a miserable marriage to Robert), become queen until another takes away all she holds dear and she will have three children who will be crowned and die before her with her valonqar slaying her. Melara, who accompanies Cersei, is given one prophecy and her question results in Cersei killing her.

Macbeth later hallucinates Banquo sitting at the table while Cersei hallucinates seeing Ned Stark, Tywin, Tyrion and others in the crowd.

Lady Macbeth

Lady Macbeth who to be unsexed, and sets up the king's murder while Cersei wishes she was a man and sets up Robert's death. Both women view femininity as a weakness. Towards the end Lady Macbeth goes mad while Cersei's mental instability is increasing.

Who as't is thought, by self and violent hands took off her [Lady Macbeth's] life

the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you

Cersei will be killed by Jaime, who will be her last Hand of the King, by strangulation with the Hand's chain.

*Crackpot*

Macbeth goes to the witches to receive another prophecy that makes him overconfident. He then has MacDuff's family killed. I think after Lancel's death, Cersei will have the rest of Kevan's family killed off and/or Davos's family as Davos is a moral man like Macduff and leaves his family to aid his king. I think Davos will end up aiding Jon, the Malcolm parallel.

Macbeth is told that he won't be vanquished until Birnam Wood moves against him. That was Tolkien's inspiration for the Ents.

The trees [of the kingswood] are gowned in gold and red and orange

Through Jon's POV:

the great oak looked especially angry, as if it were about to tear its roots from the earth and come roaring after them

In that case, I wonder if Bran can get the kingswood to come to KL against Cersei on Jon's side?

[bbstark]

very nice thread! Great effort by Fireeater and everybody else :)

I'm particularly interested in the prophecy and how it steers Cersei's choices, and I think there's more to the Macbeth analysis! (great job on that one)

I'll be back when I've caught up on the chapters.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

Most everyone hates Cersei but still enjoys her chapters because it is amusing to watch her fall from arrogance and Grace.

[Fire Eater]

Another thing I would like to add to the Macbeth parallel is that Macbeth is shown Banquo's royal descendants and one of them "that two-fold balls and treble sceptres carry", which was a reference to King James I, the three scepters alluding to the three kingdoms of England, Scotland and Wales or Ireland and the two balls are things given at coronations with James being crowned king of Scotland then king of England.

Cersei might get such a site in her second prophecy. Jon will be King of Winter, King-beyond-the-Wall and King on the IT, and he will be crowned per Robb's will as KitN and King of Westeros due to his lineage.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Cersei is correct though that the Realm desparately needs to rebuild the fleet. (A restored navy would certainly have been of great use in dealing with the Ironborn and then with Aegon's invasion.) And it isn't objectively unreasonable for a Realm that has just been through a civil war to seek an extension on repaying its debts. (Real life nations have gotten debt modifications for far less compelling reasons.) This decision really only blows up in her face because the Iron Bank reacts in an insane manner.

They are upset that Cersei is delaying paying them back, so they react by planning to spend millions supporting Stannis? That does not make any sense. Even with their support there is no guarantee Stannis will win (his military situation is still pretty desparate even with the Iron Bank's support), and if he loses then they are out all the money they loaned the Crown plus the money they loaned to Stannis. That kind of loss could very well ruin their institution. And even if Stannis somehow does win, it will only be after another round of civil war that could last years and may leave Westeros so devastated that it simply doesn't have the ability to pay the IB back.

I could understand their actions if Cersei had outright cancelled the debt, but given that she only wanted an extension in paying them back and is from a family with a rock solid reputation for always paying its debts, the Iron Bank should have given her the extension. They could have certainly negotiated some favorable concessions for themselves as part of a deal (much like the Faith did with Cersei), they would likely be repaid much quicker than they would by supporting Stannis (who may never be able to pay them back), and a Westeros with a powerful navy is in their interest as well (it will be a much better place for investments if it isn't constantly being raided by Ironborn.) Instead they threw a temper tantrum. I can't really blame Cersei for not realizing that a business institution would act in such an irrational manner.

IMO, the problems with the Iron Bank stem from the fact that Cersei deferred payment for their loans without consulting them.

After Cersei informs then, that she has deferred the payment, she thinks (Cersei 4, AFFC)

The new Holy Septon would doubtless wring his holy hands and the Braavosi would sqeak and sqawk at [Cersei], but what of it?

It should not have come as a surprise to the Iron Bank, that the crown was short on money with a war raging for two years and the Riverlands, one of the most fertile regions completely destroyed (Westeros only seems to export goods like woods, corn, fruit, wine etc., so a fertile region being destroyed is a massive hit for the economy.)

Cersei should have sent her Master of Coin to Braavos to renegotiate the contents of their contract with the Iron Bank. I am sure, that the Iron Bank would have done that (maybe the conditions would have been a bit worse, but the Iron Throne would still have been regarded by them as an institution, that pays for its debts.)

Instead she just stops paying them. I am not even sure, whether she informed them before or they just noticed one day, that the Iron Throne was not paying any more.

So in the eyes of the Iron Bank she defaults on her debt. The Iron Bank later sent an envoy, but Cersei first let him wait for six days, then mocked him in front of the court and later sent him to Rosby, who had no authority to pay them.

Since the Iron Bank had a reputation for always getting their money ("The Iron Bank will have its due"), that is even known to Jon Snow, the bank could not just do nothing without harming their reputation and therefore their interests in the long run.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Nice job I enjoyed reading this.

Thanks to all those involved.