423 replies to this topic

[Alia of the knife]

ArabellaVidal, on 06 January 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Good analysis, Evita. When I was reading the part about the forest, I was reminded of the characterization of the forest as a sinister force, an opponent and a place of temptation for the early Christian settlers in America, especially in the literature depicting such. Off the top of my head, I remember this association from the critical readings for Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter and possibly from Serge Anne Golon's Angelique novels. The forest in this chapter and from the Prologue seems to be a character rather than just a haunted or enchanted place, a participant in the plot, soldiers of the wild in battle against the Night'sWatch in a territorial war, not unlike how early European settlers in their attempts to cut the forest back and plant crops as well as remove shelter for the Native American 'enemy'.

The wind attempting to remove Tyrion's clothing is also an active character and it is possibly the cumulative effect of these aspects of nature which are normally regarded as lifeless by southerners that he now has no wish to mock the Wall.

Alia, while I do agree that Sansa is set up from the very beginningas being more southron than the other children, less Stark-like as you aptly pointed out, I fail to see what difference would have been made by her telling the truth. She would still be the one who suffered as a consequence. Her parents have promised her to the Lannisters, and speaking from the point of view of someone who grew up in a society where marriages are still arranged, her 'required' loyalty is to her in-laws. She has been brought up the 'southron' way and after the initial sense of shock at her 'betrayal', I don't see how the ultimate disaster that befell the Starks could have been averted.

This brings us back full-circle to the mystical forces connected to the Old Gods that seem to have a hand in the events in Westeros. The direwolf and the stag that killed each other is an omen of that disaster and one could argue that even if Ned had refused to become Hand and leave the North, he could still have put the paths of the Starks on the road to disaster by his seemingly traitorous refusal. For I fully believe that the 'Mockingbird' would have manipulated events towards a confrontation which was partly the purpose of blaming the Lannisters of the murder of Jon Arryn.

On Sansa:

No, that is very true, but I suppose that is the irony in the dual nature of Stark/wolfs blood/all-for-the-pack idenity; duty to be sure, (see Ned also), but stepping out of that box and putting it all on the line, think Brandon Sr. riding off ot KL, Lyanna beating off four attackers to defend a boy, and then later by association Arya defending Micah and even Jon speaking up when he shouldn't, (or some say he shouldn't).

There is inherent risk in speaking up and shaking up the status quo.
Some might say it's noble, and some may think it makes things worse.
Maybe both are true as we bear in mind what Hoster Tully said of Brandon- a gallant fool.

Ned however, is the dutiful son, even though as he says himself everything was meant for Brandon, and Cersei states it was Brandon who was born to lead while Ned was just a soldier.
Sansa is often the dutiful daughter doing what is expected of her, while Arya does what she wants, but as I noted in the "The Making of GOT," the woman who did the costumes deliberately made Sansa reflect something other than her idenity because thats how they interpreted it as well, and I think because she initially didn't appreciate her idenity, her gift of the gods was taken, and the connection lost. .



But, thats only what we know currently about Sansas arc as I think her journey to getting that idenity back, (which is a part of that arc), will prove that she may be just as ruthless as Arya in getting her home back and justice for her family, even if her methods are different.

Edited by Alia of the knife, 06 January 2013 - 05:29 PM.

[Alia of the knife]

Not sure if Nox Acana, (which I stumbled upon in looking for visual themes for wolves), is influenced by Martin, or not, but they have great music that matches some of the themes we're talking about.:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=hKx1Pvk9YWk

[evita mgfs]

ArabellaVidal, on 06 January 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Good analysis, Evita. When I was reading the part about the forest, I was reminded of the characterization of the forest as a sinister force, an opponent and a place of temptation for the early Christian settlers in America, especially in the literature depicting such. Off the top of my head, I remember this association from the critical readings for Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter and possibly from Serge Anne Golon's Angelique novels. The forest in this chapter and from the Prologue seems to be a character rather than just a haunted or enchanted place, a participant in the plot, soldiers of the wild in battle against the Night'sWatch in a territorial war, not unlike how early European settlers in their attempts to cut the forest back and plant crops as well as remove shelter for the Native American 'enemy'.

The wind attempting to remove Tyrion's clothing is also an active character and it is possibly the cumulative effect of these aspects of nature which are normally regarded as lifeless by southerners that he now has no wish to mock the Wall.

Alia, while I do agree that Sansa is set up from the very beginningas being more southron than the other children, less Stark-like as you aptly pointed out, I fail to see what difference would have been made by her telling the truth. She would still be the one who suffered as a consequence. Her parents have promised her to the Lannisters, and speaking from the point of view of someone who grew up in a society where marriages are still arranged, her 'required' loyalty is to her in-laws. She has been brought up the 'southron' way and after the initial sense of shock at her 'betrayal', I don't see how the ultimate disaster that befell the Starks could have been averted.

This brings us back full-circle to the mystical forces connected to the Old Gods that seem to have a hand in the events in Westeros. The direwolf and the stag that killed each other is an omen of that disaster and one could argue that even if Ned had refused to become Hand and leave the North, he could still have put the paths of the Starks on the road to disaster by his seemingly traitorous refusal. For I fully believe that the 'Mockingbird' would have manipulated events towards a confrontation which was partly the purpose of blaming the Lannisters of the murder of Jon Arryn.

ArabellaVidal:  DELIGHTFUL, INFORMATIVE ANALYSIS!  WOW!  So much neat stuff you observed and shared.

I LOVE your reference to Hawthorne’s novel, and honest to goodness, I saw Hawthorne in the Tyrion POV as well, in reference to the gnarled walking stick Tyrion carries, which is similar in description to the gnarled walking stick “Old Scratch” carries with him on his walk through the  “haunted” woods while in the company of Young Goodman Brown, from Hawthorne’s short story “Young Goodman Brown”.

Even though Tyrion’s walking stick resembles the “magic” stick from Hawthorne’s story, I did not immediately rationalize Tyrion as fitting the role of Satan while visiting the Wall;  however, I suppose Ser Alliser Thorne may disagree with the picture I paint of the Lord of Lannister.  If I remember rightly, Satan tosses the stick on the ground and it writhes like a snake [which I think connects to Moses’ staff that turns into a snake to impress upon Ramses and company Moses’ great powers, for later he uses the staff to part the Red Sea]; in “Brown”, the gnarled walking stick then turns into a broom, and a Goody woman who is both Brown’s catechism teacher and a witch on the side, mounts the broom and “defies gravity” somewhat like Elphaba in the musical Wicked!

Satan does all this to impress Brown with his dark magic, luring him to continue on his “dark” path which will lead him to the witches’ coven meeting and the initiation ceremony of the new recruits.

I suppose if I “stretch” the facts somewhat, Brown may be Jon Snow, an innocent who may be seduced by the temptation of evil, which is exactly what the devil hopes to accomplish.  But the forces that really “get” to Brown and arouse his suspicions are his own family, past and present, and the churchgoers Brown worships alongside every week when the good folk attend devotion services: 1)  Brown learns his ancestors were all in league with the dark side;  2)  Brown learns that his own wife “Faith” is one of the new recruits to be indoctrinated into the coven;  3)  Brown learns that all the pious villagers of his town who religiously attend Sunday services are hypocrites, for Brown witnesses the virtuous men and women of his congregation gathered to perform dark magic and worship the devil.

If Jon is like Goodman Brown, I do not see Tyrion as the “dark force” drawing Jon in.  However, Martin may employ Tyrion as a “red herring” or blind, and Jon may still be tempted by evil forces in the future, and maybe these forces will use Jon’s parentage as a lure by which to draw Jon Snow into their clutches.  Jon seemingly will be eager to learn the identity of his mother, and depending on the forces that deliver the knowledge to Jon, evil manifestations might present Ned Stark as a deceptive villain who denied his sister’s trueborn son knowledge of his  heritage, whatever the facts may be and depending on whether or not the evil force is honest in reporting past events to Jon.

Enough of my ramblings when I meant to praise your observations. We have been following Martin’s personification of the structures along with the weirwood trees specifically, for Martin details Winterfell as human-like with hot water rushing through its walls like blood rushes in the veins of humans.  The Wall is also personified, as I pointed out in my Tyrion III POV analysis.  Moreover, if the weirwood that is the heart of Winterfell truly houses the souls of the dead Starks, then the reanimation of the Kings of Winter and Lord Starks from the crypts may coincide and even ally with the martial forces symbolized by the trees.

Again, Fine Work!

[Little Wing]

A comment or two on Tyrion's chapter:

It's interesting that yet again he thinks on the darkness of forests and primal fears of humans connected with it. A forest obscures your view, blocks sunlight, hides wild animals in bushes, caves and keeps you on your toes. I say again, because this is what Tyrion had to say in his first chapter in AGoT: "Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack". We also had an unnerving view of woods in Cat's very first chapter - she feels uncomfortable in the brooding, silent, dark godswood of Winterfell that is so ancient. Most fairy tales are also swamped with the dark forest motif. Personally, I've always liked this mysterious aspect of woods in my stories, although I'm a huge tree-hugger   I don't mind forests being represented as dark and brooding, full of mystery. I love to walk through forests and can't imagine being afraid, but tell that to our ancestors... Anyway, to get back to Tyrion - although he's quite cynical at times, and especially in his conversation with Mormont on "the darkness coming" Tyrion is not blind to the mysterious/unknown. He feels drawn to the Wall, a magical hinge, and looking on the haunted forests sees more than he's aware of... I gather this is because he reads so much. He is cynical, but just open minded enough to not dismiss entirely the dangers of the coming Winter.
About Ghost being described as a white shadow - this is also how the Others are described in the Prologue, as white shadows. One of the heretical notions is that Ghost is more aligned with the ice lot beyond the Wall, and therefore Jon too. The black ice armoring him in his dream from Dance goes well with said heresy he is Snow after all... such a proper name for a King of Winter...
We see Maester Aemon "looking at" Tyrion with his white, blind eyes and calling him a GIANT. We also have Mormont's raven looking at Tyrion with its beady, black eyes and calling him a FOOL. A giant fool? lol    We also had the word DUEL from the bird. A fool's duel? Anyway, Tyrion is deemed a giant, a fool and a friend in this chapter. He has potential for greatness as well as for foolishness? Doesn't he say to himself, quite often, fool of a dwarf?