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A truly just man? - a Stannis reread


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#101 Aleit

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 09:10 PM

It guts me a little bit every time I read this chapter. At what point is it considered fratricide if there is no fraternal feelings whatsoever from one of the parties? Some of Cersei and Stannis' grievances against Robert are quiet similar.



#102 LordStoneheart

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 06:57 AM

It guts me a little bit every time I read this chapter. At what point is it considered fratricide if there is no fraternal feelings whatsoever from one of the parties? Some of Cersei and Stannis' grievances against Robert are quiet similar.

 

Feelings have nothing to do with the definition. It's still a blood brother killing another.



#103 squalleke123

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 06:09 AM

ACoK, chapter 10, Davos I

GENERAL OBSERVATIONS:

I love this chapter. It opens with the burning of the Seven, and the imagery in the description of said Seven burning is quite interesting, allowing for several different interpretations. It’s also interesting to be in Davos’ head for the first time, and to understand a bit more about the dynamics of his relationship with Stannis. On top of that we have Davos’ chat with Salla; we had just learned about AAR from Mel, but it is Salla who tells us of the original Azor Ahai. And closing the chapter we have a great dialogue between Davos and Stannis.

Davos questions whether Stannis has been converted and is now a true believer, like Selyse. I think that Davos questions this because he feels it is out of character for Stannis, but this is just an impression of mine.

CONCLUSION:

I think there are three very important things we learn (or reinforce knowledge from the Prologue) about Stannis here.

  • ·Stannis acknowledges worth regardless of birth or station; I cannot think of another high lord that acts quite like this.
  • ·Stannis is not a cold unfeeling man; he has (several) issues, but being unfeeling is not one of them. Quite the opposite in fact.
  • ·Stannis is not a true believer; he doesn’t care about religion, and he isn’t a R’hllorist. He simply recognises that Mel has some powers and he means to use them. To be fair, there aren’t many other options open to him.


 

I'm new to this forum, but as I just started rereading ASOIAF and have arrived at this chapter a few things are dawning on me:

 

I have some reservations on your three conclusions:

 

The first one is obviously quite correct, as he seems to loathe his lords as useless when you ask their counsel. Instead he turns to either a Maester, Mel or Davos. We never see him ask counsel from anyone else, but we may suspect that he had at least some from Jon Arryn (as their characters sort of match and Jon Arryn is shown as a 'wise' man).

The second one also seems true. We know for instance that Stannis feels frustrated about not getting what he deserves. He is also later shown to at least feel bad about spilling innocent blood.
The third one is were I have problems with. In this chapter conflicting images are shown about Stannis in this regard. He states himself that he is using Mel as some sort of an ace-in-the-hole, but the opposite seems more true to me. I'm deriving this from the following:

 

“For the night is dark and full of terrors,” Selyse and her queen’s men replied. Should I speak the words as well? Davos wondered. Do I owe Stannis that much? Is this fiery god truly his own? His shortened fingers twitched.
<...>
By the time the song was done, only charwood remained of the gods, and the king’s patience had run its course. He took the queen by the elbow and escorted her back into Dragonstone, leaving Lightbringer where it stood. The red woman remained a moment to watch as Devan knelt with Byren Farring and rolled up the burnt and blackened sword in the king’s leather cloak. The Red Sword of Heroes looks a proper mess, thought Davos.

 

Especially the part about patience struck to me as out-of-character for Stannis. I believe he is being counselled away from his patience and into rash actions, either by Mel or by his wife. It is clearly shown (in Davos II I believe but I could be mistaken) that patience is the way to go: As KL is being cut off from their supplies the population is already at the brink of a revolt, The lannisters are de facto surrounded and their hosts are mostly isolated from eachother.