87 replies to this topic

[Lummel]

Hmm.  The favourable light is the light from Davos' eyes!

There is a big difference in how Stannis is portrayed from the different POVs.  Davos is clearly the most sympathetic towards Stannis, Cressen's most coloured by love but also failure - his own inability to help Stannis as well as the failure of Stannis' ambitions, Catelyn sees a man who is practically blockheaded in his obsession about being the rightful king and as was mentioned above we have the snippets here and there of the fear of the truly just man and the well regarded battle commander.

I find the prologue full of foreboding.  It is the classic 'I have a bad feeling about this' set up.  Cressen is full of foreboding.  Davos who is introduced as an honest man tells us there is no hope.  The season is changing heralding some big, but obscure change.  Cressen like old father time is giving way to Pylos.  There is further foreboding as in time Stannis will give way to Shireen who seems too sweet and injured for life on Dragonstone let alone Westeros.  Finally traditional, known wisdom and authority is crowned by a fool's hat - this is a world turned upside down and heralds the introduction of more magic into the series.  Nothing good can come of this is Cressen's message.

The picture of Stannis is disturbing.  His ambition comes across as totally removed from reality - but is combined with a kind of precision "It was said that Stannis knew the strength of every house in the seven kingdoms".  He is dour, grim and humourless.  This is combined with a lack of affection or even respect for Cressen that I still find shocking.  His dwelling on perceived past slights and insults to the second degree - just see his outburst about The Ned, is obsessive and wearying.  The question is how is the cold realism going to combine with the mad ambition and what result will it achieve?

[Royal Oats]

Good Topic.  I agree with much of what has already been said.  I just want to add something to one aspect of this thread and that is:

Why Robert hates Stannis
We are certainly missing some details on the backstory between Robert and Stannis but here's where I speculate how the rift could have occurred.  It's not that Robert and Stannis have different personality types.  As someone else pointed out, Ned and Stannis have very similar personalities and Robert was best pals with Ned.

Lux in Tenebris, on 05 November 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I don't want to get too off topic, but I always thought it odd that Robert would be such close friends with Ned, someone who has more in common with Stannis than Robert in terms of personality.

I believe It's that Stannis is a "by the book" guy to the extreme as evidenced by him mutiliating Davos who saved his army during the siege.  So Imagine how a person of that rigidity would handle a rebellion against the one true rightful king.  I suspect that during the onset of Robert's Rebellion, Stannis did not demonstrate complete loyalty to Robert's cause.  Stannis probably told Robert "Yeah, I know you got a raw deal by Rhaegar stealin your chick.  And yeah I know that the king is crazy.  But dude he's the king so just deal with it." The law is the law.  The king is your king.  In Stannis' mind, these rules are inflexible for a just society.   We all know that Stannis eventually came around to support Robert's cause and win battles for him. However Robert would not have taken Stannis' initial lack of enthusiasm well, most likely harboring a grudge against Stannis for this.  Robert is certainly one to hold grudges. Just ask the assassins he sent for the Targaryen offspring.

Edited by Royal Oats, 12 November 2012 - 04:55 AM.

[Blisscraft]

Welcome, Royal Oats!  Thank you for contributing to the reread.

DP - Wonderful job (as always)!  I had been looking forward to your review of this chapter and your summary, insight and analysis is as expected.  

Lummel - I agree that this Prologue is filled with foreboding.  Afterall, it begins with the comet, "read slash that bled above the crags of dragonstone like a wound in the pink and purple sky." (my emphasis).  The image of a wound, the comet, in the "pink and purple sky" which evokes bruising, is the best way for Martin to begin with Stannis.  Stannis is wounded.

Cressen explains these wounds very sympathetically, as noted above in DP's summary.  Stannis is the second son.  Robert did everything first and better.  Robert and Stannis watched their parents' death.  Shireen, his daughter carries a scar from greyscale which is certainly a source of discomfort for Stannis as a parent.  Dragonstone, as Stannis' seat, is a wounding from Robert to Stannis.  Renly being rewarded with Storm's End is another one.  (Although, it was a smart move by Robert to do this, as Stannis was always a potential threat to Robert as a possible usurper and Renly was a "child" when given SE).

In addition to being wounded, Stannis is surrounded by the wounded.  As I noted above, Shireen has her greyscale scar, but in addition to her being one of the wounded, there is also, Patchface, the sad fool, and Cressen an old man . . . "now there is a tale to make men weep."  (emphasis oringinal).  Davos, although wounded by Stannis as a punshment for smuggling, has his little bag of fingerbones about his neck, lest anyone forget he lost the tips of his fingers.  Stannis' wife, Selyse, is unattractive, and as tall as her husband with a mustache to boot.  Her lack of physical beauty is a wound in a world like Westeros.

How can Stannis heal?  This prologue is the beginning of his journey towards it.  The source of healing, for Stannis and his wounded little group is shown to be the new god.  When all else fails, when deprived of everything, god bcomes the answer to Stannis.  In the beginning he has doubt, but Mel makes him a believer.

Edited by Blisscraft, 12 November 2012 - 09:59 AM.

[Dr. Pepper]

Lummel, on 12 November 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

This is combined with a lack of affection or even respect for Cressen that I still find shocking.

This is why I wonder what the conversation with Selyse was after Cressen was dismissed.  I keep reading that dinner sequence and Stannis seems as though he's very uncomfortable.  Of course, he always seems a bit uncomfortable, but the events are unusual, even to Cressen.  No one woke him, which was unusual.  Did no one wake him because Stannis had already decided his services weren't need?  Or did no one wake him because Stannis was trying to protect him?  Did Selyse or Melisandre tell Stannis offscreen that he would have sign tonight when his old maester dropped dead?  Did he encourage Cressen to wear the fool's helm as a way to protect him?  Fools have a sort of protection in that they are not taken seriously.  By making Cressen a fool, perhaps it was meant to make him seem less threatening somehow or meant to divert attention from his counsel or even to alter whatever visions Selyse or Mel might have said were seen in the flames?

I don't know, it could be my bias speaking here.


Blisscraft - would love to get your breakdown of the symbolism in this chapter!  It seems there was so much.

[J. Stargaryen]

Rolex Baratheon, on 07 November 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

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This.

Stannis is the best of all the Five Kings. He had the least men, the least resources, the least castles, and yet it was only GRRM's stupidly unrealistic love for Lannisters that prevented him coming to the Throne in A Clash of Kings. <snip>

Is there some kind of role playing aspect to this forum that I'm not aware of? Like if you have a Stannis avi you're just supposed to ignore the fact that Stannis would have been crushed by Renly if not for Mel's shadow baby. Or if you have a Lannister avi you're supposed to make dumbass comments about how Tywin's punishment of his father's mistress was proportionate to her 'offenses'.

I guess let me know. I have a Targaryen avi and I think maybe we need to reevaluate some of Aerys II's atrocities actions.

[Winter's Knight]

J. Stargaryen, on 13 November 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

Is there some kind of role playing aspect to this forum that I'm not aware of? Like if you have a Stannis avi you're just supposed to ignore the fact that Stannis would have been crushed by Renly if not for Mel's shadow baby. Or if you have a Lannister avi you're supposed to make dumbass comments about how Tywin's punishment of his father's mistress was proportionate to her 'offenses'.

I guess let me know. I have a Targaryen avi and I think maybe we need to reevaluate some of Aerys II's atrocities actions.

I change my avi every few days-does that make me Martin?

[Lummel]

Dr. Pepper, on 13 November 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

This is why I wonder what the conversation with Selyse was after Cressen was dismissed.  I keep reading that dinner sequence and Stannis seems as though he's very uncomfortable.  Of course, he always seems a bit uncomfortable, but the events are unusual, even to Cressen...

Later on Stannis tells the story of Proud Wing to Davos as a way of explaining why he's dumped the Seven and has now taken up the worship of R'hllor.  I think that is exactly what he has done with Cressen.  Cressen isn't delivering the advice he wants, can't give him a path to the Iron Throne so he dumps him.

The tragedy is that Cressen looks at Stannis as a son, but clearly the feeling isn't reciprocal.  Cressen for Stannis is a servant and increasingly not a useful one.

His behaviour here is also consistent with shortening Davos' fingers.  There he upheld the law, here he upholds his wife's authority.  Both are technically correct but also cruel in effect.

I would say that Davos' view of Stannis is not Stannis.  Reading his POV, which is the most sympathetic to Stannis, you are not seeing the truth, rather you are seeing the world through Davos coloured spectacles just as here we see it through Cressen coloured ones.

[Lykos]

I think you´d make good use of this.   I love your work.

Jem, on 11 September 2011 - 06:26 PM, said:

So one of the most fascinating things that I have found about ADWD is the allegations of Lord Rickard Stark’s 'southron ambitions'. These seem to be fuelled by Lord Stark’s maester, Warlys, who also seems to be behind the Stark-Tully marriage alliance.

Lady Dustin tells us that Warlys was the bastard son of a Hightower girl and an archmaester of the Citadel. Warlys’s father and his cronies seem to be the ones who are directing Warlys and feeding him suggestions to pass on to Rickard. So I wondered:  who is Warlys’s powerful father? Wouldn’t it be interesting if Warlys’s father was someone we have met before?

I flicked through the appendix on AFFC to try to find an answer. There I found listed an archmaester Wargrave. The War… prefix of his name caught my attention – Warlys-Wargrave – maybe a father and son? There are some fathers and sons in Westeros who have similar names (eg Tywin and Tyrion Lannister), however it is hardly a trend or common convention to name your son similarly to his father, so no real evidence there.

However, old Wargrave is the archmaester that Pate, from the prologue of AFFC, is in service to.  Archmaester Wargrave is now old and senile, but he once was the archmaester in charge of ravens for the Citadel. In other words, he was the chief communications officer for the whole of Westeros – a pretty powerful position to hold. He is also the owner of the black iron key that the Alchemist gets Pate to steal. Inside the chest Pate finds the key as well as a lock of blond hair, a portrait of a woman (presumably Wargrave’s mother) and a gauntlet that Wargrave says belonged to a prince. I don’t know what any of that means, if anything. Wargrave also sometimes confuses Pate with someone called Cressen. Pate doesn’t know who Cressen is, but we know him as the long-time Baratheon maester who dies in the prologue of ACOK.

So, could Wargrave be the one who was ultimately behind Rickard’s southron ambitions? He was a friend of Cressen’s, so maybe he was using Cressen to encourage the Stark-Baratheon alliance from the Baratheon end. Though after re-reading Cressen’s prologue, he doesn’t not mention anything like that.
From Sam’s last chapter in AFFC, Marwyn suggests that the maesters were responsible for killing off the last of the Targaryen dragons. The maesters seem to be against magic and against dragons. They also do not like the Targaryens. Old Maester Aemon seems to be under the impression that the Citadel would offer Dany, as the PtwP, protection and guidance. Marwyn is highly sceptical of this suggestion, to say the least. Marwyn also says that Aemon was sent to The Wall because the other maesters did not like his blood.

So were the maesters plotting to overthrow the Targaryens? Was Wargrave using his son Warlys to direct Rickard Stark into forming a faction against the Targaryens? Wargarve, with his ultimate access to the ravens and their messages, could have been mobilising other maesters, such as Cressen, towards building a Stark-Baratheon-Tully-Arryn alliance against the Targaryens.

I think something really big was going down behind the scenes and we have just now begun to glimpse it. I think herein lays the seed of Robert’s Rebellion.

Pycelle in Dance, Tyrion said:

Pycelle was lost. "But that is from the greyscale that near killed her as a babe, poor thing."

Just because a Maester speaks kindly doesn´t mean he´s incapable of scheming.

Edited by Lykos, 13 November 2012 - 04:22 AM.

[Lady Meera Reed]

Thank you for the thread & the great analysis, guys!
I have been waiting for a Stannis re-read for so long

Blisscraft, on 12 November 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

[...] Lummel - I agree that this Prologue is filled with foreboding.  Afterall, it begins with the comet, "red slash that bled above the crags of dragonstone like a wound in the pink and purple sky." (my emphasis).  The image of a wound, the comet, in the "pink and purple sky" which evokes bruising, is the best way for Martin to begin with Stannis.  Stannis is wounded.
[...]

Interesting, because Stannis' eyes have also been described as "wounds" or "bruises" a few times:

• His eyes were open wounds beneath his heavy brows, a blue as dark as the sea by night. (Cressen)
  
• The king’s eyes were dark blue bruises in the hollows of his face. (Davos)
  
• The king’s eyes were blue bruises, sunk deep in a hollow face. (Jon)

Dr. Pepper, on 13 November 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

This is why I wonder what the conversation with Selyse was after Cressen was dismissed.  I keep reading that dinner sequence and Stannis seems as though he's very uncomfortable.  Of course, he always seems a bit uncomfortable, but the events are unusual, even to Cressen.  No one woke him, which was unusual.  Did no one wake him because Stannis had already decided his services weren't need?  Or did no one wake him because Stannis was trying to protect him?  Did Selyse or Melisandre tell Stannis offscreen that he would have sign tonight when his old maester dropped dead?  Did he encourage Cressen to wear the fool's helm as a way to protect him?  Fools have a sort of protection in that they are not taken seriously.  By making Cressen a fool, perhaps it was meant to make him seem less threatening somehow or meant to divert attention from his counsel or even to alter whatever visions Selyse or Mel might have said were seen in the flames? [...]

  I've often wondered about this as well .. Stannis did not want Cressen there, IMO -- he might've known that something like this would happen & was trying to avoid it.

[Babeldygob]

I think that we see in this chapter that Stannis history has always been filled with him being second place. Either after Robert or then after Renly, even though he's always done his best. I think that we see in this chapter that with this campaign something has to change. He can't be a secondhand king and Cressen might make Stannis think about his youth too much. Stannis probably feels it is time for new blood where needed, so he replaces Cressen with Pylos and his useless wife, who can't give him any sons, with Melisandre.

I think Stannis feels it's time for change and that his usual gamerules won't serve him in his goal. This could affect the way he would normally treat Cressen and also explain his uncomfortable behaviour when Cressen gets to be a fool. He feels he should stop it, but at the same time stopping it would not be inline with his feeling that there must be change.

I think Stannis thinks that holding Storm's End was one of his finest acts and that he would have probably failed without Davos. He feels that he can't disregard Davos because without him, he would probably be dead or at least respected much less, since he wouldn't have been able to hold Storm's End.



This is written very quickly and I will elaborate in the future. Great thread!

[Blisscraft]

DP - You're exactly right.  There is so much in this chapter I had to simplify my thinking to the first image: the comet presenting as a wound in the bruised sky.  I will look again, gladly, but it's almost as if you could go line by line and find something to focus upon.

[Ragnorak]

I love the wounds observations.  Did anyone else note the First Men aspect of Davos insisting Stannis wield the cleaver?  It clearly is of great import in the North.  Karstark in the midst of his rage against Robb even bothers to thank him for swinging the sword himself.  Ned asks Robert to swing the sword himself at least twice-- first with Lady and then again with Dany.  In both cases Robert refuses but Stannis is willing to personally own his harsh justice.

He may not inspire love, but he most certainly inspires respect.  We see in GoT that LF, Varys, and even Tywin fear Stannis.  Not a single bannerman beholden to Dragonstone switches to the Lannister side or even Renly until some are captured after the Blackwater.  He isn't loved like Robert or feared like Tywin but somehow inspires more loyalty in his bannermen than either of them.

[Blisscraft]

A few things pop out immediately as prevaling images within the text.  First, is perspective. Cressen views the comet from a balcony outside his chambers.  It is where the ravens land to bring "words."  Cressen looks out at the comet between to stone gargoles, a hellhound and a wyvern.  The two are of many throughout Dragonstone.  From this perspective Cressen is poised somewhere between heaven and earth as he is between the two gargoles.  Betwixt and between.  This becomes a theme throughout his narrative because it places his physical position from the "get go" as a spiritual one:  Cressens' love for Stannis as that little sad boy he once knew and protected and now, King Stannis, the "new" status Cressen must accept.

In addition to the Cressen's relationship to the space between things is the presence of color, especially combinations of color.  Most notably at Dragonstone are the colors red and black, Targ colors.  Red and black evoke the sense of fire and blood, life and death as well as coming danger and destruction.  Sometimes fire and blood can be positive and create a sense of passion and creativity; wamth and experience.  However, in Cressen's POV, there is more of a sense of Hell with these colors than there is a sense of Heaven.

Another couple of examples of the combination of colors comes from Cressen's observance of Patchface's motley mien.  Motley is a term used for mixed colors, generally without much of a pattern, (although this isn't the case with PF) or much sense of how the colors blend together.  Motely suggests a "clash" of colors.  (What we have here is a Clash of KIngs, the colors being of the different Westerosi houses).  The other strong combination of colors is the "rainbow" of Renly's Rainbow Guard.  People often see a rainbow as something for children to bring forth "happy" images.  However, the rainbow is a bridge between Heaven and Earth.  It represents a path to god post apocalypse.  The fact that Renly chose this as his "guard" is perhaps a means of reporting change to the present Westerosi society and that change will come after hardship and struggle.  Finally, the rainbow represents the chakras, from red through the color spectrum to purple.  Another bridge to enlightenment and to god.

The white raven as messager of change is interesting in this world because, the white raven is not an albino, like Ghost, but rather a white raven with black eyes which suggests a harmonizing principle like yin/yang.

One more image for tonight, the chain.  Lummel brought up the maeters' chain before in the Tyrion reread.  It's another one of those images that suggests a bound between Heaven and Hell and/or a reconciliation of opposites, like yin/yang.  "Blest be the chains that bind" goes the hymn.  So goes that chain that shows commitment to god.  Also, the chain is connected to the marriage vows between men and women.  "The old ball and chain," is an old fashioned way of referring to one's spouse which is simultaneously pleasant and painful.  Cressen finds his chain doesn't suit him anymore.  He is losing his ability to wear it.  It is uncomfortable and seems to choke him.

Finally, the choking, "the strangler" is the means of Cressen's death.  It signals a change on so many levels, from so many perspectives, it's hard for me to narrow down.  However, with regard to DP's comment about Stannis perhaps not inviting Cressen to the feast has something to do with Stannis' desire to "save" Cressen, this is supported in the text by Stannis' comment, "I will not have you kill yourself in my service."  Cressen in fact does kill himself in service to Stannis when he swallows the poison and thereby completes the transition to a new regime with his death.

Edited by Blisscraft, 14 November 2012 - 07:39 PM.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Lummel, on 13 November 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

Later on Stannis tells the story of Proud Wing to Davos as a way of explaining why he's dumped the Seven and has now taken up the worship of R'hllor.  I think that is exactly what he has done with Cressen.  Cressen isn't delivering the advice he wants, can't give him a path to the Iron Throne so he dumps him.

The tragedy is that Cressen looks at Stannis as a son, but clearly the feeling isn't reciprocal.  Cressen for Stannis is a servant and increasingly not a useful one.

His behaviour here is also consistent with shortening Davos' fingers.  There he upheld the law, here he upholds his wife's authority.  Both are technically correct but also cruel in effect.

I would say that Davos' view of Stannis is not Stannis.  Reading his POV, which is the most sympathetic to Stannis, you are not seeing the truth, rather you are seeing the world through Davos coloured spectacles just as here we see it through Cressen coloured ones.

In the Winds of Winter gift chapter, Stannis says that Cressen was "like a father to him." He just isn't a lovey-dovey type guy, so it doesn't really show, but he did value Cressen. He even says that he doesn't want Cressen killing himself in his service by climbing the stairs of Dragonstone every day

Edited by Ramsay Gimp, 15 November 2012 - 05:55 PM.

[Lummel]

The man who commands his father figure to wear a fools' hat at a feast is either deluding himself or has a very different notion of what 'like a father to me' means than non-Stannis people.

That's not a basic not lovely dovey behaviour it is simply grossly disrespectful.

[Babeldygob]

Lummel, on 16 November 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

The man who commands his father figure to wear a fools' hat at a feast is either deluding himself or has a very different notion of what 'like a father to me' means than non-Stannis people.

That's not a basic not lovely dovey behaviour it is simply grossly disrespectful.

He didn't command it. He didn't immediately stop it.

[Winter's Knight]

Babeldygob, on 16 November 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

He didn't command it. He didn't immediately stop it.

He commanded it:

Quote

“Fool,” he growled at last, “my lady wife commands. Give Cressen your helm.”

Baratheon men hate fighting with their wives apparently.

[Lummel]

Quote

Lord Stannis's eyes were shadowed beneath his heavy brow, his mouth tight as his jaw worked silently.  He always ground his teeth when he was angry.  "Fool", he growled at last, "my lady wife commands.  Give Cressen your helm."
No, the old maester thought, this is not you, not your way, you were always just, always hard yet never cruel, never, you did not understand mockery, no more than you understood laughter."

Selyse commands it, Stannis enforces it.  He doesn't stop it at all.  Stannis only draws the line when Selyse suggests that Cressen should sing his counsel.  This isn't the way most people treat a father figure.  So either Stannis was deluding himself or he has some distinctly weird ideas.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Lummel, on 16 November 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

Selyse commands it, Stannis enforces it.  He doesn't stop it at all.  Stannis only draws the line when Selyse suggests that Cressen should sing his counsel.  This isn't the way most people treat a father figure.  So either Stannis was deluding himself or he has some distinctly weird ideas.

Or he was in a particularly bad mood that day. Have you never treated a close family member like shit? Cressen himself remarks that the behavior is out of character for Stannis

[Lummel]

The chapter is all about change so it perhaps makes sense to see that Stannis is also a person who is changing.  As the story progresses we will see marked physical changes him, here Cressen notices a change in his behaviour and attitudes.

One of the interesting things about Stannis is that different POVs show different angles of his personality.  The portrait of Stannis here in Cressen's narrative isn't a pretty one.  Stannis' treatment of Cressen really stands out given what you cited from TWOW chapter.