R+L=J v.34

[Ygrain]

Hey guys, I've read this thread from time to time, but they go so fast I rarely see everything.

I'm just wondering, apart from the legitimacy of R+l=J (which I wholeheartedly believe), do you discuss other things related, as to the initiation of the relationship between R and L, who else knows etc, or is just R+L's legitimacy?

Just about anything related to R+L

[The wolf dragon]

About R+L=J I just found an interview George R.R. Martin did when the show Game of Thrones was about to come out. He said he asked the the show producers who they thought Jon Snow's parents were. He said they guessed right, they gave the most popular theory. I think everyone on the board can agree that the most popular theory about Jon Snow's parents is that he is the son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Lady Lyanna. I think this pretty much proves who Jon is.

[sagaz]

I'm still really skeptical about this...

Because, in my opinion, both the main plot in AGOT (I mean the book) and the War of Five Kings are based on a single line: the seed is strong.

if Jon was a Targ, that line would lose most of its sense, and to me all Martin's saga would lose a lot of its credibility. It's a matter of coherence.

Do we have to assume that Jon Arryn was a fool?

Then maybe Tommen is really Robert's son (they slept in the same bed for 17 years, maybe one night he was drunk and Cersey doesn't remember or she's ashamed and doesn't want to tell anybody what happened). Maybe one of Cat's Children is Littlefinger's... Maybe Robert Arryn is Littlefinger's! Anyone could be anyone's child, if the seed isn't strong... so secret Targs everywhere (what a nightmare) and plenty of crackpot theories.

Why there's so much hype around Aegon? bacause he has Targ features, and that's the way it's got to be.

Because the seed is strong.

yes, the seed is strong with the Baratheons. I don't know about the other families. Maybe Cat. She beats Ned 4 out of 5.

[Dragonfish]

About R+L=J I just found an interview George R.R. Martin did when the show Game of Thrones was about to come out. He said he asked the the show producers who they thought Jon Snow's parents were. He said they guessed right, they gave the most popular theory. I think everyone on the board can agree that the most popular theory about Jon Snow's parents is that he is the son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Lady Lyanna. I think this pretty much proves who Jon is.

I don't recall him ever saying that they guessed the most popular theory. Do you have a link to this interview?

[Erudain]

About R+L=J I just found an interview George R.R. Martin did when the show Game of Thrones was about to come out. He said he asked the the show producers who they thought Jon Snow's parents were. He said they guessed right, they gave the most popular theory. I think everyone on the board can agree that the most popular theory about Jon Snow's parents is that he is the son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Lady Lyanna. I think this pretty much proves who Jon is.

Funny, It's not the first time I hear this, I will do some research later on google...see what I can find out.

For what I've heard, before agreeing onto selling the rigths to HBO, GRRM asked Benioff & Weiss "who are jon real parents?"....I guess as a test to know who were going to direct the series...and both answered rigth.

Now, it's never stated they said R+L....

Edit:: found something, don't know if it's a reliable source though http://heyuguys.co.u...-and-d-b-weiss/

[The wolf dragon]

I'm sorry I can't find the link to the article that I read. I read it yesterday, while I was looking for new information about season three of the show. I was looking at IMDB so I know it's there some where. The board member Hedge knight posited a similar article but it does leave out George saying they guessed the most popular theory.

I will add that the actor playing "Theon" Alfie Allen asked George Martin who Jon's parents are. I can't directly quote him but he said something like It's very Luke Skywalker finding out his father is Darth Vader.

[dragontamer]

About R+L=J I just found an interview George R.R. Martin did when the show Game of Thrones was about to come out. He said he asked the the show producers who they thought Jon Snow's parents were. He said they guessed right, they gave the most popular theory. I think everyone on the board can agree that the most popular theory about Jon Snow's parents is that he is the son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Lady Lyanna. I think this pretty much proves who Jon is.

I did a bit of a search but found nothing. I would much appreciate a link because I haven't heard of it before.

As to the link provided by Erudain (thank you) the question mentioned Jon Snow's mother..... and they guessed right, not parents!

[Bear Island Bruiser]

yes, the seed is strong with the Baratheons. I don't know about the other families. Maybe Cat. She beats Ned 4 out of 5.

Hey I've seen crackpot theories surronding this. Basically saying that only Arya was Neds and the others had other fathers. Most put forward was Robb being Littlefingers. Seems incredibly far fetched and based almost totally on the Seed is Strong theory.

As for the interview if you take it at face value it would indicate Lyanna however

1. It just asks about the mother not the parents. So if it was Lyanna it doesn't have to be Rhaegar as the Dad. Though once you get down to Lyanna the possibilites do seem a bit thin on the ground when it comes to the Dad. Anyone for a crackpot raped by Brandon theory? what about a incestuous that's why Benjen was sent to the Wall one? No thought not
   
2. It also doesn't state that it was the most popular theory, just they were right. For all we know they might have said Old Nan.
   
3. GRRM might just have wanted to hear that they actually knew the story, Him saying yep you were right doesn't mean gospel that it is. So if heard them same Lyanna it would confirm that they knew the books which is what he wanted. He then goes away happy knowing he can lower the boom on them later on.
   
4. The only person ever stated in the books to be Jon's mother is Wylla. So maybe they answered that?
   

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Just about anything related to R+L

Thanks.

Has Benjen's joining of the Night's Watch ever been considered in the sense that he did it for his (in addition to Jon and Ned's) own safety due to his knowledge of R+L? Ned obviously wanted to keep the whole situation as quiet as possible (as Jon would, one assumes, have been killed if his true lineage was discovered), so it makes sense to me that Benjen could have joined the the Night's Watch under the pretense of following the Stark tradition but with the consequence that he would never be questioned about Ned's bastard.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

It's been considered and I'd suggest that Benjen knows more about it than most. His move into the nightwatch is a bit strange when you consider at that time the Stark dynasty consisted of Ned (current head of the House), the infant Robb (infant mortality isn't uncommon around then) and Benjen. What with Ned running off to put down the Greyjoy rebellion, dealing with wildling raids and accidents etc. it's a pretty big risk to send 1 of only 2 possible heirs off to the wall.

Though keeping him at Winterfell or putting him in charge of a remote holdfast, we know Ned was interested in repopulating some of these, would have had the same effect of ensuring he kept quiet.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

It's been considered and I'd suggest that Benjen knows more about it than most. His move into the nightwatch is a bit strange when you consider at that time the Stark dynasty consisted of Ned (current head of the House), the infant Robb (infant mortality isn't uncommon around then) and Benjen. What with Ned running off to put down the Greyjoy rebellion, dealing with wildling raids and accidents etc. it's a pretty big risk to send 1 of only 2 possible heirs off to the wall.

Though keeping him at Winterfell or putting him in charge of a remote holdfast, we know Ned was interested in repopulating some of these, would have had the same effect of ensuring he kept quiet.

I agree with the first paragraph wholeheartedly. Even though infant mortality among the gentry does not seem to be that much of a prob in Westeros, the Stark line doesn't seem all that secure with just Robb and the girls to secure it.

The second paragraph though I dispute to an extent. Because theoretically even if Benjen let his mouth slip at the Night's Watch, it shouldn't have an effect on Jon or Ned as the disputes of the realm etc.....so the Watch could be seen as safer for the sake of Jon. Though of course as the books have shown, the realm and the Watch do often intertwine.

The Night's Watch may also be a self-inflicted punishment of sorts. Benjen was at Harrenhal, he saw the attraction between the pair, and may even have spoken about/aided the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna. The Watch could be a way of atoning for the way in which his silence harmed the realm.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

I agree with the first paragraph wholeheartedly. Even though infant mortality among the gentry does not seem to be that much of a prob in Westeros, the Stark line doesn't seem all that secure with just Robb and the girls to secure it.

The second paragraph though I dispute to an extent. Because theoretically even if Benjen let his mouth slip at the Night's Watch, it shouldn't have an effect on Jon or Ned as the disputes of the realm etc.....so the Watch could be seen as safer for the sake of Jon. Though of course as the books have shown, the realm and the Watch do often intertwine.

The Night's Watch may also be a self-inflicted punishment of sorts. Benjen was at Harrenhal, he saw the attraction between the pair, and may even have spoken about/aided the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna. The Watch could be a way of atoning for the way in which his silence harmed the realm.

Fair enough I think basically that Benjen could have been relied upon to keep quiet no matter where he'd gone to but yeah maybe the Nightswatch would be the safer bet.

Baring in mind that Ned obviously isn't annoyed with Benjen the reason can't be that dramatic and I can't see Ned ordering Benjen to go to the Wall just in case. Personally I'm going with Benjen escorting Lyanna when Rhaegar 'abducted' her.

[Erudain]

I did a bit of a search but found nothing. I would much appreciate a link because I haven't heard of it before.

As to the link provided by Erudain (thank you) the question mentioned Jon Snow's mother..... and they guessed right, not parents!

Well going back to "external sources" or R+L = J...we have our lovely Kenny McCor...I mean Sean Bean telling us this: http://www.vulture.com/2011/06/sean_bean_on_whats_next_for_ga.html

But he is calculating, in at least one matter: Jon Snow’s parentage. When it comes to Jon Snow’s mother, Ned is extremely tight-lipped, save for his one terse comment to King Robert. The fandom is teeming with theories that Jon isn’t Ned’s bastard at all.

That’s another twist [to come]. It’s a great conundrum. Who do you think it is?

My money’s on the mother being Ned’s dead sister and the father being Rhaegar Targaryen. If Ned swore to protect his dead sister’s son from his own best friend, the best way of doing that would have been to claim him as his own and take him in.

Ned really knows who [Jon’s parents are], but he can’t let on. That’s why it’s such a moving moment, those poignant scenes I have with Kit Harington [who plays Jon], because I couldn’t say what I really thought. There are so many things I could have said, because there is a love there between the two of them, but I can’t express it as overtly as I can with the other children, who I can hold and kiss. Even if I were his true father, I can’t talk about it for fear of offending my wife, who’s really bitter about this. So it’s really a cruel situation. Through no fault of his own, Ned took on a lot by taking Jon in.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

I have a question to pose to this forum instead of starting a whole new one.

We know Mance remembered Jon from Robert's feast at Winterfell. Also during the feast it Tyrion put together who he was as well. Benjen also sought Jon out as well.

I can't remember if we've seen anyone else who has, I kind fo feel like there was oner more who claims to have remembered him from the feast. (Any help)

We also see at the Wall Master Aemon and The Old Bear take a liking to Jon off the bat.

Could people in the realm actually have and idea or the same R+L=J theory? Secretes aren't kept very well in the realm.

Does anybody think it is possible that others may have heard rumors or have an idea that R+L=J? Perhaps wispers of the truth are all ready out there?

Why else would the King Beyond the wall and the son of Tywin Lannister care to even recognize Jon? Maybe they were seeking him out to see if there were Targ qualities.

Now you may say if Tyrion had an idea, why didn't we hear him think it, well the first time Jon and Tyrion met it was during Jon's POV. So Tyrion could have dismissed the thought in his head once he saw no Targ resembelence.

How could have Tyrion heard this rumor in KL and not Robert? Maybe Robert did hear it, but chose to ignore it. We know through Ned there are truths Robert simply chose to ignore. Crackpot or am I on to something?

[Lady of the Oak]

I think Tyrion just has a fondness for 'cripples, bastards and broken things' (or something like that). It may be that he just saw something of himself in Jon.

As for Mance... :dunno:

There might have been rumours in KL but even we have trouble finding any concrete evidence for it, and that's if anyone in the south would be likely to take an interested in some northern bastard.

[Lux in Tenebris]

I have a question to pose to this forum instead of starting a whole new one.

We know Mance remembered Jon from Robert's feast at Winterfell. Also during the feast it Tyrion put together who he was as well. Benjen also sought Jon out as well.

I can't remember if we've seen anyone else who has, I kind fo feel like there was oner more who claims to have remembered him from the feast. (Any help)

We also see at the Wall Master Aemon and The Old Bear take a liking to Jon off the bat.

Could people in the realm actually have and idea or the same R+L=J theory? Secretes aren't kept very well in the realm.

Does anybody think it is possible that others may have heard rumors or have an idea that R+L=J? Perhaps wispers of the truth are all ready out there?

Why else would the King Beyond the wall and the son of Tywin Lannister care to even recognize Jon? Maybe they were seeking him out to see if there were Targ qualities.

Now you may say if Tyrion had an idea, why didn't we hear him think it, well the first time Jon and Tyrion met it was during Jon's POV. So Tyrion could have dismissed the thought in his head once he saw no Targ resembelence.

How could have Tyrion heard this rumor in KL and not Robert? Maybe Robert did hear it, but chose to ignore it. We know through Ned there are truths Robert simply chose to ignore. Crackpot or am I on to something?

Super interesting thought, but I get the sense that what happened at TOJ/Starfall and the situations surrounding it are not common knowledge. Don't some of the men at Winterfell thought that Ned killed Dayne in single combat? I think if Robert heard those rumors he would have cut the man's tongue out who uttered them rather than ignore them.

I think you are really on to something with how quickly people take to (and notice) Jon. It could be that he is the bastard son of an honorable lord who has a place in his halls, but it could be something more.

[Lux in Tenebris]

I think Tyrion just has a fondness for 'cripples, bastards and broken things' (or something like that). It may be that he just saw something of himself in Jon.

As for Mance... :dunno:

There might have been rumours in KL but even we have trouble finding any concrete evidence for it, and that's if anyone in the south would be likely to take an interested in some northern bastard.

The bastard son of Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North and right hand man to Robert's Rebellion and the quashing of the Greyjoy rebellion may get more attention than most.

[Lady of the Oak]

The bastard son of Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North and right hand man to Robert's Rebellion and the quashing of the Greyjoy rebellion may get more attention than most.

Good point, but I was thinking more about how little most southerners seem to regard the north in general. And I think most people would accept the straightforward 'Ned Stark's bastard' line more readily than the, admittedly far fetched, theory of 'Ned Stark's sister's son who may will be the Targaryen heir'. People seem to apply their own foibles pretty easily to others so it wouldn't seem out of place for such a High Lord to have a bastard.

That said, I think the colouring would put most people who met him off (unless they had actually met Rhaegar, and even then...)

I think it's an interesting idea, and I'd be interested to see if anyone else had the idea before we get the big reveal from Reed in the last book :rolleyes:

[setmyheartafire]

Here's the Alfie Allen thing: http://www.hypable.com/2012/06/05/game-of-thrones-star-alfie-allen-theon-just-wants-approval-from-his-family/

[Black Wolf Smith]

Has Benjen's joining of the Night's Watch ever been considered in the sense that he did it for his (in addition to Jon and Ned's) own safety due to his knowledge of R+L? Ned obviously wanted to keep the whole situation as quiet as possible (as Jon would, one assumes, have been killed if his true lineage was discovered), so it makes sense to me that Benjen could have joined the the Night's Watch under the pretense of following the Stark tradition but with the consequence that he would never be questioned about Ned's bastard.

Benjen would not have join just to protect the secret.

1. Benjen either played a part in helping Lyanna(whether it was keep her secrets, actully helping her escape, or covering up the fact she had left)

2. Benjen's grief about Lyanna

3. There is some yet unexplained connection between the Starks and the Wall.

Are the most likely things that happened. I think its all 3.