Why did the "Mereenese Knot" delay ADWD for so long?

[total1402]

I read on a review that this was the main reason it took six years. Martin needed to explain how all these people decided to go to Dany, why they go and get it in the right order.

But, how was this difficult? Quentyn is the only one who gets there and he can show up whenever Martin wants him to. No juggling really occured. He arrives when Dany has decided to get married to solve an issue well established at the end of ASOS; Dany wants peace. The other two then don't get to Dany or impact on her story during the book. These events don't really need to be in sync if they're so unrelated for the most part. The why of it is also pretty simple, in ASOS we know that Tyrion wants vengence on Cersei. In AFFC we learn Martells plan and Victarions enmity against his brother. Its a pretty simple set of events that arguably haven't even been resolved.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Well, there's Victarion as well and his journey.

You have Tyrion with his journey to the Dragonqueen and that takes quite a lot of time to develop. With Jorah and stuff.

Quentyn, obviously. His whole story had to begin, develop and then end suddenly.

I mean, in hindsight it's easy to say that all those plots could have been resolved very easily, but that's just hindsight. I mean, with all the persons and plots going on in ASOIAF, I can imagine the difficulty of writing it all in the right order.

[Maester Tormund]

GRRM ended up cutting The Battle of Slaver's Bay from ADwD. For that battle we have Jorah, Tyrion, and Victarion all present (did I miss anyone?) that was what held it up, getting everyone there for the battle not just getting Quentyn there so he can get toasted.

[Werthead]

But, how was this difficult? Quentyn is the only one who gets there and he can show up whenever Martin wants him to. No juggling really occured. He arrives when Dany has decided to get married to solve an issue well established at the end of ASOS; Dany wants peace. The other two then don't get to Dany or impact on her story during the book. These events don't really need to be in sync if they're so unrelated for the most part. The why of it is also pretty simple, in ASOS we know that Tyrion wants vengence on Cersei. In AFFC we learn Martells plan and Victarions enmity against his brother. Its a pretty simple set of events that arguably haven't even been resolved.

You're describing the end result, not the process. The process was that GRRM had several characters en route to Dany: Quentyn, Tyrion, Victarion and Marwyn. He knew that Marwyn would arrive late or last, as he left Oldtown late during the events of AFFC (chronologically, probably halfway through ADWD or maybe later). The rest was up for grabs (as Victarion's storyline in AFFC happens chronologically very early in the book, possibly even contemporaneously with the events in late ASoS, and Quentyn could have left whenever).

The issue then became who arrived, in what order, and what affect that had on events. And, this being GRRM, he didn't outline or plan these variations, he wrote them. Of the Dany/Quentyn/Barristan/Victarion/late Tyrion chapters in the book, a lot of them were written with one plan in mind, then rewritten with another plan in mind, and then rewritten again with a third. A major issue was Dany leaving Meereen, which left him without a POV in the city. I think that he considered having Tyrion maybe narrate events instead, but he wasn't in the right place at the right time. The issue was resolved when he created the Barristan POV chapters instead.

So in total we have probably a dozen or more chapters in the book that were rewritten from scratch several times over before he reached the final idea that appeared in the book. And then a few of those chapters got moved into The Winds of Winter anyway, meaning half the problem wasn't necessary in the first place (though it does of course - hopefully - save writing time from TWoW instead).

[BigFatCoward]

the most important question,if this was the final solution how bad were the earlier incarnations?

[total1402]

You're describing the end result, not the process. The process was that GRRM had several characters en route to Dany: Quentyn, Tyrion, Victarion and Marwyn. He knew that Marwyn would arrive late or last, as he left Oldtown late during the events of AFFC (chronologically, probably halfway through ADWD or maybe later). The rest was up for grabs (as Victarion's storyline in AFFC happens chronologically very early in the book, possibly even contemporaneously with the events in late ASoS, and Quentyn could have left whenever).

The issue then became who arrived, in what order, and what affect that had on events. And, this being GRRM, he didn't outline or plan these variations, he wrote them. Of the Dany/Quentyn/Barristan/Victarion/late Tyrion chapters in the book, a lot of them were written with one plan in mind, then rewritten with another plan in mind, and then rewritten again with a third. A major issue was Dany leaving Meereen, which left him without a POV in the city. I think that he considered having Tyrion maybe narrate events instead, but he wasn't in the right place at the right time. The issue was resolved when he created the Barristan POV chapters instead.

So in total we have probably a dozen or more chapters in the book that were rewritten from scratch several times over before he reached the final idea that appeared in the book. And then a few of those chapters got moved into The Winds of Winter anyway, meaning half the problem wasn't necessary in the first place (though it does of course - hopefully - save writing time from TWoW instead).

Yeah but we didn't really need a POV in Mereen once Dany is gone. End result, the forces in Mereen sally out and we later find out what Barristan did to keep stuff together. It doesn' require great narration and Tyrion would have heard murmerings. Its precisely the sort of thing that doesn't need to be given a great deal of time.

[Groat]

I thought I remember hearing that on a good day Martin writes 5 pages, and the good days are not every day.

The issue then became who arrived, in what order, and what affect that had on events. And, this being GRRM, he didn't outline or plan these variations, he wrote them.

[total1402]

GRRM ended up cutting The Battle of Slaver's Bay from ADwD. For that battle we have Jorah, Tyrion, and Victarion all present (did I miss anyone?) that was what held it up, getting everyone there for the battle not just getting Quentyn there so he can get toasted.

Thats a shame because in WOW he'll then have to write a lot of "wind up" chapters before he starts with the action. I can really see Dany in WOW just about resolving Mereen arc.

But I still think that Vic is basiclly a wildcard who on the ocean without any impediments could arrive whenever. Whilst Tyrion n Jorah have quite a few chapters after they are slaved to sort of provide a POV in the enemy camp. Which is one of Quentyns functions by witnessing Astapor n the slaver army. But these went on for a long time. Tyrion n Jorah being slaves in a menagerie and establishing a subplot of them among other slaves. If Plum had bought him and Jorah at the market it would have saved a lot of time. To me that felt like a conscious decision to hold up the plot since the end result would have been the same.

Personally I would have just had the slavers take the city during the Hidzhar wedding at the pit which they had set up as a ruse to lull the defenders into a false sense of security; but Dany escapes on Drogon. Then it would have made the character deal with a very real loss and more intense sense of failure. Plus, it was irritating that he seemed to be pushing that Dany was having another (3rd?) false dawn; but then doesn't let that play out. I mean he spent hundreds of pages trying to convince me that the slavers can actually win and are a credible threat suddenly. Plus the city hates her and she'll be leaving it anyway if it isn't destroyed; its survival isn't really important to the plot since its an impoverished backwater of no military or strategic worth.

[Leto]

snip

Ya, or he could have written another book altogether. I take it you don't enjoy the mereen story line?

And what's wrong with "wind up" chapters, most os the series is "wind up". None of the books are particularily action packed in the traditional sense.

[total1402]

Ya, or he could have written another book altogether. I take it you don't enjoy the mereen story line?

And what's wrong with "wind up" chapters, most os the series is "wind up". None of the books are particularily action packed in the traditional sense.

Well, no, I didn't like it. The series had Dany have several false dawns already; another feels unneccesary. I only feel invested in this place for Danys moral reasons, otherwise Martins made it clear that the city has no financial, military or strategic worth; explicitly dead weight. But then seems to make massively important plot elements gather around it. Plus the story doesn't have a clear ending; it has a cliffhanger. Plus most of the chapters just repeat the same theme and character dilema over and over whilst we wait for other things to happen. I also felt the situation was heavily contrived and unrealistic. How is Yunkai able to amass any strength after Dany took all their slaves and money; as well as smashed their army? Yet its actually Mereen that is impoverished. I could say more.

Because all of ADWD ended on a cliffhanger. That means at the start of WOW we're going to have chapters to re-set what we already know and situations. We know theres going to be 2 Arriane chapters before she gets to Aegon. Vic and Tyrion have two chapters between them before any fighting starts. But that also means we'll get ones with Stannis, we'll get ones with Jamie n Brienne wandering on the road towards Cat. It will all add up. Once thats added up it means you also have to delay things like Dany intervening in slavers bay. Hence there'll be a lengthy Volantine siege and Dany will somehow get captured to have another banal story with the Dothraki; repeating the whole powerless Dany routine we saw comprise the last book. By the time all thats done and we get the i resolutions that will leave Dany in the same place she was in ASOS on the penultimate book with no realistic way of getting to Westeros. Doing the opening Slavers Bay battle would have cut the need for their intro chapters and given more chapters to introduce new plots rather than resolving ADWD.

[Ser Cortnay Penrose]

I just don't believe that the the problems with the "Mereeenese Knot" is the only explanation for why this book took so long to write. Remember, he had already finished about half of ADwD by the time AFfC came out. Then he used SIX years to finish the remaining half of the book. Just to compare, we know he wrote ACoK in two years and ASoS in under two years. And regarding AFfC, well first he had written for about a year or even longer before he came to the realization that the 5 year gap didn't work, and so had to scrap all he had written to that point and start from scratch again. Then he got all the practical problems with fitting the events he now had to make up into the story he had originally planned. Then he made the decision to split the book in two by geography, which in turn resulted in more practical problems that he had to solve. So when AFfC finally came out, it was kind of understandable and logical that it had taken him 5 years. By this time he had already written half of ADwD and found a solution for most of the problems resulting from the collapse of the 5 year gap. He also stated that the next book would be out the following year. And then it took six years. No one's gonna tell me that there isn't a component of severe motivational problems involved in this. GRRM must have had long periods with total lack of interest in this project. I believe he was simply fed up with it for long periods of time, and just needed to focus on other aspects of his life.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Well, no, I didn't like it. The series had Dany have several false dawns already; another feels unneccesary. I only feel invested in this place for Danys moral reasons, otherwise Martins made it clear that the city has no financial, military or strategic worth; explicitly dead weight. But then seems to make massively important plot elements gather around it. Plus the story doesn't have a clear ending; it has a cliffhanger. Plus most of the chapters just repeat the same theme and character dilema over and over whilst we wait for other things to happen. I also felt the situation was heavily contrived and unrealistic. How is Yunkai able to amass any strength after Dany took all their slaves and money; as well as smashed their army? Yet its actually Mereen that is impoverished. I could say more.

Because all of ADWD ended on a cliffhanger. That means at the start of WOW we're going to have chapters to re-set what we already know and situations. We know theres going to be 2 Arriane chapters before she gets to Aegon. Vic and Tyrion have two chapters between them before any fighting starts. But that also means we'll get ones with Stannis, we'll get ones with Jamie n Brienne wandering on the road towards Cat. It will all add up. Once thats added up it means you also have to delay things like Dany intervening in slavers bay. Hence there'll be a lengthy Volantine siege and Dany will somehow get captured to have another banal story with the Dothraki; repeating the whole powerless Dany routine we saw comprise the last book. By the time all thats done and we get the i resolutions that will leave Dany in the same place she was in ASOS on the penultimate book with no realistic way of getting to Westeros. Doing the opening Slavers Bay battle would have cut the need for their intro chapters and given more chapters to introduce new plots rather than resolving ADWD.

I beg you pardon, but why do you think you can predict what exactly GRRM is going to do? Why do you think it will be Daenerys with a Dothraki army who is going to 'free' the city again? Barristan could just as easily fight the Battle of Slaver's Bay, after which Victarion will arrive to give the final blow to Slaver's Bay. The Battle of Slaver's Bay won't take that much time, as the Battle of Blackwater also didn't take that much time. If you really want to rewrite everything and think you can finish the story for GRRM and think you know everything GRRM wants to do or say, please, knock yourself out.

[Lummel]

I just don't believe that the the problems with the "Mereeenese Knot" is the only explanation for why this book took so long to write...

The other major problem is the mess in was in from having written the first three books too quickly. The beginning of ADWD, AFFC and the end of ASOS all overlap in time line terms making the plotting very complex.

When you say half the book written, that may be so in page numbers but much of that would have to have been scrapped and rewritten - see what Werthead wrote above. Once GRRM hits an unresolvable problem plot wise the only answer is to go back and start again. Because the POVs are not free standing that means other chapters are effects and have to be altered.

It's not a case of him finishing a page and that being good to go to the printers.

[total1402]

I beg you pardon, but why do you think you can predict what exactly GRRM is going to do? Why do you think it will be Daenerys with a Dothraki army who is going to 'free' the city again? Barristan could just as easily fight the Battle of Slaver's Bay, after which Victarion will arrive to give the final blow to Slaver's Bay. The Battle of Slaver's Bay won't take that much time, as the Battle of Blackwater also didn't take that much time. If you really want to rewrite everything and think you can finish the story for GRRM and think you know everything GRRM wants to do or say, please, knock yourself out.

Volantis. They have hundreds of ships and a lot more men than Danys forces. You're right. The first part will have Barristan, Vic and Tyrion smash the Ghiscari coalition. But they'll immediatly be beset by a larger force which has always been the main threat. If they're outnumbered five to one, with the Red Flux ravaging the city it means that its gonna take a miracle to save Mereen. Short of Moqorro convincing the Volantis army to defect there is no other way I can envisage around this. Volantis will besiege the city or try to storm it; most likely both. So Dany will likely have to go and save Mereen. Shes not going to abandon all her soldiers and her followers in Mereen; even if she intends to march straight for Westeros afterwards. It will take a long time to get all of that established. Plus, if you have spent a whole massive tome building up an event across five POV characters then you can't have that event just be a footnote. Then he would make it seem anti-climatic.

[Lummel]

I think it has been pretty clearly telegraphed what will happen when the Volantine fleet carrying an almost entirely slave army arrives at Meereen. See the Tyrion chapter in which he passes the Red Temple in Volantis.

[total1402]

I think it has been pretty clearly telegraphed what will happen when the Volantine fleet carrying an almost entirely slave army arrives at Meereen. See the Tyrion chapter in which he passes the Red Temple in Volantis.

Slave soldiers have never betrayed their masters before. Most of the Ghiscari soldiery are also slaves but have proven surprisingly loyal considering their abysmal treatment. The Unsullied have been a big exception due to peculiar circumstances. If these Volantine were mostly red worshippers, then they're pretty lax in their belief if they're willing to go and wage war against AA in the first place. They would have had plenty of opportunity and chance to betray their masters. Not to mention that if they heard the fire popes speechs/magic but were unmoved then Moqorro isn't going to be able to move them. It would be like if Christ returned in the middle ages, the Pope told the armies of Europe not to wage war against Christ; yet they did so regardless. I'd say their loyalty is pretty assured at this point. If they change their minds once they see Daenerys on Drogon; it won't make much of a difference concerning the number of chapters.

Also, I suspect that they wouldn't be stupid enough to send soldiers of questionable loyalty to Mereen. Its likely that they only sent ones who did not worship Rhollor and kept the rest at Volantis under careful watch.

[Jon AS]

What I don't get about threads like this one is that they are usually at least halfway to suggesting that Martin is lying about the reason it took him so long to finish the book. Which would beg the question: why would he do that? There was nobody in the world who would have wanted the book to be done more than he did. He finished it as quickly as he could manage.

The problem with the whole series for him has been the tale growing in the telling (to crib from Tolkien). He first conceived of it as a trilogy, but the first three books only cover the first third of that original plan. Then came the five year gap that never was and all the adjustments that had to be made as a consequence.

I guess I just don't understand how people can look at a story that is this complex, filled with countless memorable characters and set in a quite detailed secondary world and think that writing this stuff while maintaining high standards of quality is in any way easy.

[total1402]

What I don't get about threads like this one is that they are usually at least halfway to suggesting that Martin is lying about the reason it took him so long to finish the book. Which would beg the question: why would he do that? There was nobody in the world who would have wanted the book to be done more than he did. He finished it as quickly as he could manage.

I don't think he lied; I just don't understand how it was ever an issue.

[Leto]

I don't think he lied; I just don't understand how it was ever an issue.

Because the story he wants to tell isn't the story you have in your head :)

[total1402]

Because the story he wants to tell isn't the story you have in your head :)

The story I envisaged was that he would have Vic and Tyrion land in slavers bay and kill the cartoonish villains who are "already beaten" as Jorah puts it even though they've had all the power the whole book. Then they would meet Daenerys. Or he would have had Dany lose because of her failings ruling Mereen, which would have been the only reason to justify dwelling on her failings to that extent in ADWD; if she had lost Mereen despite all this help being on the way due to her mistakes. Instead the character doesn't even truly pay for her mistakes; she suffers personally but most of her followers are fine, her armies intact, her city much as it was. If anything she inadvertantly preserved her forces and delayed the slavers long enough for unexpected help to arrive. So the story is fairly predictable. If Dany wasn't going to suffer a massive setback because of her failures; then why explain them at that length? Unless you're like me and like reading about Dany for the sake of reading about Dany theres not a lot plot or character wise that happens considering how huge ADWD was.

Resloving ADWD will be a massive millstone around WOW and hold it back from advancing the plot.