Varys the Mastermind/ Littlefinger the Golddigger: A Comparison

[mrlukeduke]

Not to mention that Stannis is a capable commander and could root out spies, just

Spoiler

as he did the Karstark traitors.

I'd imagine Casterley Rock would have been beyond his reach as well, when Tywin Lannister was in charge.

[Ours if the Fury]

Vary's game is still relatively unknown, he has been seen to play more than one side and is incredibly deceptive.

Little-fingers game is very well known, although unpredictable still he thrives of chaos and his plan is to do whatever is in little fingers best interest...

so far they are equals but varys has the better chance of the two of succeeding in his plans as of the end of DwD...

The reason for this is varys has been hiding, while little finger struts around, it is bound to catch up to him...

[Valandui]

Not to mention that Stannis is a capable commander and could root out spies, just

Spoiler

as he did the Karstark traitors.

I'd imagine Casterley Rock would have been beyond his reach as well, when Tywin Lannister was in charge.

Didn't Jon's warning root out the Karstark traitors?

[James Arryn]

I think I love butterbumps.

[mrlukeduke]

Didn't Jon's warning root out the Karstark traitors?

Good point.

[Devaki Khanna]

Excellent post, bb!.

It's great to have both of their background stories laid out in one spot and in a concise and coherent way. Littlefinger's background is very linear, there isn't a mystery to it. We know where he was and what he did at various points in his life. He went from A ->B->C->D. The only real gap we get during his timeline is after he left Riverrun but before he went to Gulltown. Can we presume that he stayed at the Fingers during this time? Who could he have met in that 4-5 year period? The total lack of mystery with LF's background continues on into his chosen career - all about money, baby. There is no diversity.

With Varys, the story is different and web-y. There are no definite dates on his movements. As a traveling mummer, he's made potential friends all over the place. Do mummer's have a gossip web? Are they 'protected' in the same way that fools are, in that they find themselves overhearing all sorts of things? A thief network similar to the smugglers network? Varys also has great diversity in his resume. He's been a mummer, a whore (is that right?), a thief for gold, an intelligence gatherer, a student, a teacher, a manager, a councilor to kings. Where LF can only seem to understand people in terms of gold and titles, Varys has immense knowledge on what motivates a person beyond the bling-bling.

Even without the rest of the posts in this series, one cannot deny the differences between Varys and Littlefinger are overwhelming. I believe Nate Silver would bet on Varys over LF any day of the week.

ETA: Semi-ninja'd by brash. :)

Are we sure we know all there is to know about Littlefinger's background? His grandfather was a Braavosi--was he the one who suggested the Iron Throne go to the Iron Bank for loans? Is there a connection there, by any chance?

[Devaki Khanna]

Very nicely put together, BB.

Over the course of the Tyrion reread my opinion of LF's skill as a master manipulator has fallen substantially. On closer analysis he begins to come off as an unwitting Varys pawn. Varys certainly turns down several opportunities to have Tyrion eliminate him so we have to conclude that Varys values LF still being in play.

LF's great grandfather profited from war. That is the way of a sellsword. His father earned him a fostering at Riverrun through an opportunity that presented itself during a war. It seems that LF's family's rise has been through the opportunities that present themselves in conflict. Other than dispensing with martial merit, he is certainly keeping with the family tradition. One notable distinction is that in the former cases there can be no reward without actively taking credit for one's actions.

There is almost an implication that there is a not so obvious meaning behind her taking LF's mother's name. The LF family dynamic would be most interesting indeed. His home is on the landing site of the Andals where they first arrived to war with the First Men. He gives Sansa a bastard identity of one raised in the Faith. Her current course would strip her of the Old Gods the same way the Andals did to the original Vale inhabitants.

I would love to know the actual prophesy LF heard as a boy from that hermit.

I would love to know more about his mother... and the hermit's prophecy.

[Lord Martin]

Is it a bridge to far to think that one of LF's motives in leaking the twinces to Jon A was to encourage him to make plans to foster SweetRobin with Stannis?

We're never explicitly told why Lysa was willing to poison John A. Most point to her love of Petyr and I think that was a good bit of it. But I think she needed more to agree to kill JA. So when JA says he's taking Robin away from Lysa, thats the final straw and she's willing to kill JA?

[Lord Martin]

This thread gave me some thoughts on Littlefinger and the role his wardship at Riverrun played in his life. It also got me thinking about wards.

Rather than start a tangent in this thread, I made a new one: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99373-theon-and-littlefinger-the-role-of-wards-and-fosters/

[Mark Zist]

I've just finished reading through this thread and it's really given me a lot of food for thought.

Something has been spooking through my mind (I even made an account just to ask). In bb's post about LF and V on page 2 of this thread he points out that there might be a discrepancy between Illyrio's and Varys' endgame objective and I wondered if that is the reason why Varys takes the risk to personally kill Kevan Lannister and Pycelle when could also order his birds to do it for him.

As someone said before, Illyrio supplies Varys with his birds and he has a hand in their training, which means they might also report to him about Varys' actions. So when he tells a dying Kevan what he and Illyrio are up to, is he only doing this to trick the birds (and thus Illyrio) into believing that he is still working only for the Targ restoration, while he is actually working on something else? Something magical perhaps?

So what do you guys think? Is there something behind this conversation with Kevan or is this simply something GRRM does to give the readers a little info about Varys's motivations and whereabouts?

[Odon]

Maybe his personal role had more to do with killing Pycelle rather than Kevan Lannister. Pycelle certainly didn't like Varys (trying to point the Ned in his direction as a suspect in Jon Arryn's poisoning) and Varys is unlikely to forget the Sack of Kings Landing which is down to Pycelle's bad advise to Aerys. Perhaps it's an indication that beneath Varys "nothing personal" facade he (like LF) has some strong grudges to work off.

[Darkbringer]

To be fair to LF he has the Vale well in hand, whereas Aegon doesn't yet have the Stormlands, a decimated province.

[Mithras]

An addition to the game of Illyrio. As I discussed here in detail, I think Illyrio arranged the 13 free ships offered by Xaro to Dany to leave Meereen for good. The timeline is very fitting for this. As the GC coming from the West and Griff is coming down the Rhoyne, Dany would meet them at Volantis as Team fAegon expected. There is more to this plan. 13 ships are not enough to carry her Unsullied and the additional people that agreed to go with her. They had to take the demon road. Once they took that road and suffered greatly, the khalassar of Khal Pono under the command of Illyrio would crush them and take them as slaves. It is even possible that the GC might rush to the battle to appear as the savior of Dany's people.

This would be good for two reasons:

1) Dany would lose her military power save the dragons.

2) She would be impressed and willing to marry this young prince as she is now totally powerless

I think Team fAegon only wanted Dany as an item of legitimacy. And her dragons for power obviously. Once they were settled on the IT, they would poison Dany and marry fAegon to Arianne. In this perspective, Dany should not have a loyal army (like the Unsullied).

[Mithras]

Here's my thoughts on their endgames as I understand them. Apologies for the long post, but it's a very dense comparison.

Endgame

Disclaimer: I acknowledge that we’re only on book 5 of the series, so even the most solid theories about endgames are just that—theories. Still, I think there’s sufficient evidence in the text to put together a case for both character’s motivations at this point.

For clarity, I’m going to try to keep what is “known” clearly indicated separately from anything “speculative.”

LF

I think that LF’s motivation is a lot simpler than Varys’. Simply put, LF enjoys the game, and the game itself is the point.

/snip

“From here the King turns east for Braavos. Without us.”

“But . . . my lord, you said . . . you said we were sailing home.”

“And there it stands, miserable as it is. My ancestral home. It has no name, I fear. A great lord’s seat ought to have a name, wouldn’t you agree? Winterfell, the Eyrie, Riverrun, those are castles. Lord of Harrenhal now, that has a sweet ring to it, but what was I before? Lord of Sheepshit and Master of the Drearfort? It lacks a certain something.”

“But not here,” she said, dismayed. “It looks so . . .”

“. . . small and bleak and mean? It’s all that, and less. The Fingers are a lovely place, if you happen to be a stone."

“Wed?” Sansa was stunned. “You and my aunt?”

“The Lord of Harrenhal and the Lady of the Eyrie.”

“So silent, my lady?” said Petyr. “I was certain you would wish to give me your blessing. It is a rare thing for a boy born heir to stones and sheep pellets to wed the daughter of Hoster Tully and the widow of Jon Arryn.”

“It is good to have you home, my lord,” said one old man. He looked to be at least eighty, but he wore a studded brigantine and a longsword at his side. “How long will you be in residence?”

“As short a time as possible, Bryen, have no fear. Is the place habitable just now, would you say?”

“If we knew you was coming we would have laid down fresh rushes, m’lord,” said the crone. “There’s a dung fire burning.”

“Nothing says home like the smell of burning dung.” Petyr turned to Sansa. “Grisel was my wet nurse, but she keeps my castle now. Umfred’s my steward, and Bryen—didn’t I name you captain of the guard the last time I was here?”

“You did, my lord. You said you’d be getting some more men too, but you never did. Me and the dogs stand all the watches.”

“And very well, I’m sure. No one has made off with any of my rocks or sheep pellets, I see that plainly.” Petyr gestured toward the fat woman. “Kella minds my vast herds. How many sheep do I have at present, Kella?”She had to think a moment. “Three and twenty, m’lord. There was nine and twenty, but Bryen’s dogs killed one and we butchered some others and salted down the meat.”

“Ah, cold salt mutton. I must be home. When I break my fast on gulls’ eggs and seaweed soup, I’ll be certain of it.”

“If you like, m’lord,” said the old woman Grisel.

Lord Petyr made a face. “Come, let’s see if my hall is as dreary as I recall.” He led them up the strand over rocks slick with rotting seaweed. A handful of sheep were wandering about the base of the flint tower, grazing on the thin grass that grew between the sheepfold and thatched stable. Sansa had to step carefully; there were pellets everywhere.

I think LF is quite serious in the quotes above. He is using mockery as his shield as he generally does. LF really hates being the lord of pellets. That is why he is more ambitious and greedy than anyone else in the series. He wants everything.

So, I don't think the game for the sake of playing is his endgame.

[cgf]

I don't get why people are often so happy to believe both the face littlefinger shows the world and the words of Varys on this topic. I have to admit to enjoying both schemers immensely but I would never take Varys' words on baelish at face value. Nor would I trust to completely what he shows the Starks who's eyes we see him through.

Granted I tend to believe that the old hermit LF's father took him to may have shared with young petyr a little more prophecy than just that he would be a great man, and that that may explain much of LF's true motivations and possibly even his obsession with Sansa. If for example what the hermit saw was LF bringing the last known Stark survivor back to the throne of Winterfell so that there is once again a Stark in Winterfell for the coming winter war for whatever magical reason that seems likely to be important, which would allow petyr and Sansa to rule in the north through/after what's too come. Not sure I believe all that or could even begin to defend it well, but so often I see people just shrug LF's motivations off as "he likes chaos" or "he just likes playing the game" which seems overly simplistic to a simply silly degree.

LF protects himself from risks very well but we've still seen him knowingly put himself in very dangerous position that he could continue to play the game and rise without doing. Writing each of those moments up to sloppiness from someone just focused on the game when he too could have some longer play developing that his opportunistic style just happens to work for.