551 replies to this topic

[LordHall]

i will say this its interesting that in the back of the books wehre it lists the great houses Aegon is still in brackets which means dead where as other characters are not it just says believed dead, such as bran and rickon, and also benjen stark is not in brackets it says believed dead but the brackets means confirmed dead, Youn Griff is listed seperately as just a wonderer with griff as well listed seperately from jon connington however jon connington is in brackets too though so that kind of debunks my theory lol can GRRM just hurry up with TWOW!

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

The only thing that makes sense at this point is that Varys (and only Varys...PERHAPS Illyrio) know that Young Griff isn't the real Aegon Targaryen.  Why Varys is playing this trick and deceiving everyone who has invested in this kid over the years is beyond me.  At some point the truth would come out and then he'd have a very angry/pissed off Jon Connington to deal with.  And why? For what purpose? What does Varys get out of putting this fake dragon on the throne? The ability to control him somehow?

It just doesn't make any sense to me why Varys would be lying all these years.  There's just no point in him not being real.

That being said I am preparing myself mentally for the chance that GRRM will kill him off in the next book most likely and Jon Conningtons dreams will be smashed....

[mrlukeduke]

Be funny if GGRM just made it even more ambiguous over the course of Winds/Dream as to Aegon's true identity and left it at that -- a frustrating mystery! I think he might even do that with Jon Snow and "the promise" as well, i.e. not ever reveal whether Jon is in fact the son of R&L (even though it seems like the best explanation).

Maybe that'll be the point of all his books, like Varys' words; 'Power resides where men believe it resides; it's a trick, a shadow on the wall.'

Same goes for legitimacy. There is an answer out there (in GRRM's beautiful mind perhaps), but we may never know it!

[gingerpunk]

mrlukeduke, on 01 January 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

Be funny if GGRM just made it even more ambiguous over the course of Winds/Dream as to Aegon's true identity and left it at that -- a frustrating mystery! I think he might even do that with Jon Snow and "the promise" as well, i.e. not ever reveal whether Jon is in fact the son of R&L (even though it seems like the best explanation).

Maybe that'll be the point of all his books, like Varys' words; 'Power resides where men believe it resides; it's a trick, a shadow on the wall.'

Same goes for legitimacy. There is an answer out there (in GRRM's beautiful mind perhaps), but we may never know it!

I can see this happening with Aegon. I feel that his legitimacy may not be that important to the overall story. I think the hints are cleverly placed, but they may be nothing more than another source of controversy. I do think, however, that we'll learn the truth of Jon Snow's parentage before the series ends.

[cybroleach]

gingerpunk, on 01 January 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

I can see this happening with Aegon. I feel that his legitimacy may not be that important to the overall story. I think the hints are cleverly placed, but they may be nothing more than another source of controversy. I do think, however, that we'll learn the truth of Jon Snow's parentage before the series ends.

No worries their GRRM has promised that will be revealed before the end of the series.

[Andrewman]

Has anyone else had the thought that the Cloth dragon bit is a reference to Aegon raising his banners at Storm's End?

[mrlukeduke]

This has been discussed I believe, yes. It could be that the 'fake/false dragon' references are to do with a tactical military ruse, even one performed by Aegon, whether he is legitimate (which I'm slightly more inclined to believe personally, though I used to be more in the fAegon camp)... or whether he's a fraud.

Edited by mrlukeduke, 02 January 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[sumant30]

Quote

I can see this happening with Aegon. I feel that his legitimacy may not be that important to the overall story. I think the hints are cleverly placed, but they may be nothing more than another source of controversy. I do think, however, that we'll learn the truth of Jon Snow's parentage before the series ends.

I too believe that Aegon being fake or not is not part of the story until now but regarding jon's parents that's a mystery so it will be definitely will be solved, also regarding hints i don't think there any hints because i have read twice the whole series but haven't come across any.

[gingerpunk]

sumant30, on 02 January 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

I too believe that Aegon being fake or not is not part of the story until now but regarding jon's parents that's a mystery so it will be definitely will be solved, also regarding hints i don't think there any hints because i have read twice the whole series but haven't come across any.

Well, I guess they're not so much 'hints' since they tend to point every which way regarding Aegon. You can read it once and think, "This is possible," and on a reread, you come to the conclusion, "This is also possible," but there's nothing so conclusive as to rule anything out at all. Aegon has some part to play, that's for sure, but I don't think it's going to be an exceptionally large role in regards to the story overall, which is why such a seemingly important character can be introduced so late in the series. I'm not sure how this will play out. Obviously, there is mystery regarding Aegon as well, but I think that the story can be successfully told while leaving questions regarding Aegon and his legitimacy unanswered, and it might very well be the case.

[L dragonknight]

here's the thing people ashara had a thing for selmy and he for her but he didn't make a move because of the fact that he was of the kingsgaurd. thats first he even thinks about it when he's talking to dany in adwd. thens the thought that ned is the father of ashara's baby girl which is probably another reason that once he was in dorne and looking for his sister that he returns the sword to his lover. if brandon hadnt been killed then he would have been free to marry the lady of starfell. lastly the timeline doesnt fit for there to have been a baby swap. i know this is random but has anyone thought that maybe tyrion isnt who we think he is?

[aryagonnakill]

L dragonknight, on 27 January 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

here's the thing people ashara had a thing for selmy and he for her but he didn't make a move because of the fact that he was of the kingsgaurd. thats first he even thinks about it when he's talking to dany in adwd. thens the thought that ned is the father of ashara's baby girl which is probably another reason that once he was in dorne and looking for his sister that he returns the sword to his lover. if brandon hadnt been killed then he would have been free to marry the lady of starfell. lastly the timeline doesnt fit for there to have been a baby swap. i know this is random but has anyone thought that maybe tyrion isnt who we think he is?

Yes, lots of people have, but not in the context of him being half stark, because he was born well before any of the rebellion took place.  I think your trying to get a little to complicated.  Tyrion is either Targ based on his whiter than average hair, his dreams of dragons, and his immunity to greyscale, or he is Lannister based on Tywins sisters statements about how Tyrion is his real son.

[aryagonnakill]

sumant30, on 02 January 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

I too believe that Aegon being fake or not is not part of the story until now but regarding jon's parents that's a mystery so it will be definitely will be solved, also regarding hints i don't think there any hints because i have read twice the whole series but haven't come across any.

? Your saying that you haven't come across any hints to Jon's parentage?  We are presented with 3 or four choices of mothers throughout the series.  Even if you don't believe R+L=J there is still a controversy around this.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

I'm sure someone has already brought this up but I think Varys' actions lend support to Aegon being Feagon. It's a fact that Varys and Illyrio have been conspiring with each other since book 1. But to what end? To put the Targyens back on the throne? No, not exactly. I think Varys wants to see a Blackfyre take the throne. I was reading ADWD last night and in the chapter titled "The Kingbreaker" it was stated that Varys got King Aerys so paranoid that Rhaegar was plotting against him and meeting with the coconspirators at the Harrenhall Tourney that the mad king actually left King's Landing for the time in years to attend the tourney. Now if Varys was purely a Targaryen loyalist it doesn't make sense for him to further inflame the Mad King's paranoia with baseless rumors. But if he was secretly a Blackfyre supporter the first thing he would want to do is get the real Targaryens off the throne. I'm sure this is one of many examples of Varys not truly having the real Targaryen's interest at heart. Fast forward now to ADWD. All these lords claiming to be the one true king has made Westeros bleed. Now more than ever the small folk want one that can unite them all and end the bloodshed. Varys and Illyrio are clever enough to understand that in order to achieve their goal of putting a Blackfyre on the throne they'll have to mask their king as a true Targaryen. So elaborate is there scheme that not even the Blackyre knows he's a Blackfyre. Genius

Edited by TheWhiteRabbit, 06 February 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[Lord Varys]

Those were not baseless rumors. Rhaegar did plot against his father.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Lord Varys, on 06 February 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Those were not baseless rumors. Rhaegar did plot against his father.

Where exactly was it stated that he was plotting against him? The only quote I know that suggests anything was when Rheager told Jamie that there would be changes when he got back from the trident. But that could mean anything. And even if those rumors were not baseless if Varys' true intentions were to serve the realm why would he want to keep the mad king in power? Maybe so the people would rebel against him and his madness and overthrow the Targaryens.

Edited by TheWhiteRabbit, 06 February 2013 - 01:23 PM.

[Gala]

gingerpunk, on 30 December 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

I'm pretty emotionally invested with the characters, but I tend to think neither Jon nor Dany will sit the Iron Throne at the end of the novels, regardless of Aegon's legitimacy. I kind of always tended to connect the House of the Undying vision concerning Rhaegar and Aegon to Jon Snow, since he also proclaims, "There must be one more. The dragon has three heads." This doesn't say anything on whether or not Aegon is the same child from the vision, just stating that I, as someone who leans toward the idea that Aegon is a fraud, haven't particularly disregarded this. I just don't consider it as concrete enough proof that Aegon is alive.

Agree with you 100%.

And moreover, I feel a little bit cheated, because "the prince on a white horse" appears out of nowhere and gets the throne (and is PTWP) after the four books and after all those things the other characters have been through. It is kind of unfair, at least for me.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Gala, on 06 February 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

Agree with you 100%.

And moreover, I feel a little bit cheated, because "the prince on a white horse" appears out of nowhere and gets the throne (and is PTWP) after the four books and after all those things the other characters have been through. It is kind of unfair, at least for me.

Maybe he will get the throne but that doesn't mean he's the PTWP. I honestly think Jon and Danny will sacrifice themselves to save the realms of men from the others. If this is the case then I won't be disappointed that neither of them sit on the throne in the end.

[Gala]

TheWhiteRabbit, on 06 February 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Maybe he will get the throne but that doesn't mean he's the PTWP. I honestly think Jon and Danny will sacrifice themselves to save the realms of men from the others. If this is the case then I won't be disappointed that neither of them sit on the throne in the end.

Maybe!

I won't be disappointed, too, I just tried to explain why I do not like Aegon and tend to think he is a fake (it is more emotional attitude, rather than logical one).

Edited by Gala, 06 February 2013 - 02:57 PM.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Gala, on 06 February 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

Maybe!

I won't be disappointed, too, I just tried to explain why I do not like Aegon and tend to think he is a fake (it is more emotional attitude, rather than logical one).

Well I definitely agree with you there. If Aegon turns out to be the most central character to the story or even in the top 5 I will be very very disappointed as well. I feel very protective of the characters I have been emotionally invested in since book 1. I don't want some newb taking over.

[Ser Lepus]

TheWhiteRabbit, on 06 February 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

Well I definitely agree with you there. If Aegon turns out to be the most central character to the story or even in the top 5 I will be very very disappointed as well. I feel very protective of the characters I have been emotionally invested in since book 1. I don't want some newb taking over.

As I said in another thread:

Ser Lepus, on 15 January 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

I think the point of Aegon is that Dany can't be the legitimate heiress who comes back to reclaim her unjustly denied throne anymore, she has to leave Westeros alone, become Aegon's underling, or become a conqueror and usurper herself. I think Dany was purposely presented as a Mary-Sueish fairytale beatiful and good princess just to demolish that image bit by bit, and her identity as crown princess and legitimate heiress will be one of the last things being taken from the character.

So Aegon would be a tool for Dany's character development. Is he real or fake? I think is fake, but most people will never know, and his name will be written down in the books of history as that royal prince who was murdered and his throne stolen by his usurper aunt Dany the Mad Dragon Queen.