22 replies to this topic

[Ser Shaanoh the Swift]

Hi Everyone,

In GOT, We know for certain that it should be Cersei who sent the hired hand with a dagger to kill bran. But we are still not known of exactly whose dagger it is? When Cat and Ned meets LF in the brothel house we hear him say that it belonged to him before he lost it to a bet in the tourney to the Imp.

    But, However Tyrion in the coming chapters assuredly opposes that there is something a mess and when he tells Cat on the journey to Vale that LF's version is not correct. there is some thread missing here..


   Does really LF lied to Cat and Ned.? Was he outrite the Cersei's men that time?? Does he intended to Lannister and Stark going after each other which means literally a war??

   Did I by chance missed any of the sub plots are hints? Pls throw more lights on this.. Because we all know, All the war started coz of the Imp's Capture and this plays a major part in SOIAF....

[Asterisk]

I don't know how far you've read, but the culprit is revealed in ASOS, along with who the knife belonged to.

Edited by Asterisk, 16 November 2012 - 12:29 PM.

[Ser Shaanoh the Swift]

Asterisk, on 16 November 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

I don't know how far you've read, but the culprit is revealed in ASOS, along with who the knife belonged to.

Hi Asterisk,

  I completed all the five books far.  Do yu say in ASOS? Might be I have overlooked such a crucial evidence .. Can you pls refer me to the chapter in which it is revealed. So that I can have a quick glance?.

Thank You

[Asterisk]

Shucks, I can't remember the actual chapter number. But I know it was one if Tyrion's.

The wikia usually has chapter references so I checked there but I only found this (without reference):

Quote

While at Winterfell, Joffrey hired an underling to murder the critically injured Bran Stark after hearing Robert drunkenly mention that the boy should be mercifully killed.

Oh, and the knife belonged to Robert.

[Ser Shaanoh the Swift]

Asterisk, on 16 November 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

Shucks, I can't remember the actual chapter number. But I know it was one if Tyrion's.

The wikia usually has chapter references so I checked there but I only found this (without reference):



Oh, and the knife belonged to Robert.

WOW!! I missed it big time.. I am on read now. Finishing GOT... But Do yu say Robert's blade??

  This opens up some serious question.. LF played the mischeif then? :@ He wanted Lion and Wolf to go at each other? which actually started the War of the kings??

[A wilding]

Lysa sent Catelyn a letter at the start of AGoT telling her the Lannisters had murdered her husband Jon Arryn?

Littlefinger her got her to send it.

[Mark Antony]

Joffrey sent the assassin

[The Smirking Fox]

1: Lysa Arryn (Tully) was in love with Littlefinger. She helped Littlefinger get into the small council once she was in King's Landing. Littlefinger convinced Lysa to kill her husband (Jon Arryn) and to blame it on the Lannisters.

2: King Robert, while talking with Cersei, mentions how it may be a mercy if Bran died. Joffrey overhears this and hires an assassin. Joffrey was always looking for ways to receive praise from his "father" (Robert).

3: There is a tourney at King's Landing before GoT. Loras Tyrell (The Knight of Flowers) jousts against Jaime Lannister to decide the tourney's champion. Littlefinger backs Jaime Lannister and bets his dagger against King Robert who backs Loras. Tyrion also bets on Jaime. The Knight of Flowers is crowned champion after he unhorses Jaime. Tyrion and Littlefinger both lose their bets.

Catelyn goes to King's Landing. Littlefinger tells Cat and Ned that the dagger was his, but he lost it to the Imp.

Catelyn takes the Imp captive. Tyrion insists that the dagger is not his and that he never bets against his brother.

Arya chases a tomcat and becomes lost inside the Red Keep's secret passages. She overhears Varys talking with Illyrio Mopatis of a coming war partially because of Littlefinger's meddling.

Ned attends the second day of the Hand's Tourney and sits next to Sansa. The Hound is jousting against Jaime Lannister. Littlefinger backs Jaime against Renly who backs the Hound. The Hound unhorses Jaime on the second tilt. Sansa mentions she knew the Hound would win. Littlefinger tells her if she knows who will win the next joust, she should tell him before he loses all his gold to Renly. Renly says it's a pity the Imp is not with them or he would win twice as much.

[Ser Shaanoh the Swift]

Thanks for the reply everyone..

A big thanks to Smirking fox for explaining in detail.. That settles whose the dagger is actually and the one who sent it....

But, we know that its Lysa who poisoned Jon. Then why she is so adamant and fierce on Lannisters and she is so scared of them too. And Cat comes to her with the imp.. Why she accuses him for killing her lord husband? And also gives us a impression that it was lannisters who meant harm to them? in this case when actually lannisters did no harm to her?

[otherbeef]

are we sure it was Joffrey who did it? i mean Tyrion assumes it was him but the only evidence he has is that Joffrey said he is no stranger to valyrian steel or something like that, and the blade in question is valyrian steel. meanwhile Cersei's pinning it on Joffrey only made me think it was actually her and was looking to lay the blame elsewhere (something she has done often)

[The Smirking Fox]

Lysa is mentally unstable. Catelyn notices that her sister has changed and her uncle The Black Fish also mentions it. Later, It is also very noticeable when Sansa arrives at the Eyrie. Lysa is very paranoid and blames people for things they have not done, even blames Sansa of seducing Littlefinger.

Basically Lysa is crazy and that's the reason behind a lot of her actions.

[Head of The Ned]

otherbeef, on 17 November 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

are we sure it was Joffrey who did it? i mean Tyrion assumes it was him but the only evidence he has is that Joffrey said he is no stranger to valyrian steel or something like that, and the blade in question is valyrian steel. meanwhile Cersei's pinning it on Joffrey only made me think it was actually her and was looking to lay the blame elsewhere (something she has done often)

Asterisk, on 16 November 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

While at Winterfell, Joffrey hired an underling to murder the critically injured Bran Stark after hearing Robert drunkenly mention that the boy should be mercifully killed.

Oh, and the knife belonged to Robert.

Joffrey steals the knife from Robert and gives it to the scum who he hired to kill Bran. I remember this as well from when I read ASOS.

Edited by Undead Neddard, 17 November 2012 - 08:47 PM.

[Ami Moonsinger]

Quote

1: Lysa Arryn (Tully) was in love with Littlefinger. She helped Littlefinger get into the small council once she was in King's Landing. Littlefinger convinced Lysa to kill her husband (Jon Arryn) and to blame it on the Lannisters.

2: King Robert, while talking with Cersei, mentions how it may be a mercy if Bran died. Joffrey overhears this and hires an assassin. Joffrey was always looking for ways to receive praise from his "father" (Robert).

3: There is a tourney at King's Landing before GoT. Loras Tyrell (The Knight of Flowers) jousts against Jaime Lannister to decide the tourney's champion. Littlefinger backs Jaime Lannister and bets his dagger against King Robert who backs Loras. Tyrion also bets on Jaime. The Knight of Flowers is crowned champion after he unhorses Jaime. Tyrion and Littlefinger both lose their bets.

Catelyn goes to King's Landing. Littlefinger tells Cat and Ned that the dagger was his, but he lost it to the Imp.

Catelyn takes the Imp captive. Tyrion insists that the dagger is not his and that he never bets against his brother.

Arya chases a tomcat and becomes lost inside the Red Keep's secret passages. She overhears Varys talking with Illyrio Mopatis of a coming war partially because of Littlefinger's meddling.

Ned attends the second day of the Hand's Tourney and sits next to Sansa. The Hound is jousting against Jaime Lannister. Littlefinger backs Jaime against Renly who backs the Hound. The Hound unhorses Jaime on the second tilt. Sansa mentions she knew the Hound would win. Littlefinger tells her if she knows who will win the next joust, she should tell him before he loses all his gold to Renly. Renly says it's a pity the Imp is not with them or he would win twice as much.

I agree with most of your points except 1, I have the impresion that Jon Arryn death was caused by his intention of giving his son to be fostered by Stannis in Dragonstone, maester Colemon share this with Cat when she was in the Eyrie and later Lord Frey said the same thing in the Twins and provides some details: he went to KL to see his sons in a tourney, probably Joff day of name tourney and ...

“I was speaking of your sister. I proposed that Lord and Lady Arryn foster two of my grandsons at court, and offered to take their own son to ward here at the Twins. Are my grandsons unworthy to be seen at the king’s court? [...] “Well, whoever he was, Lord Arryn wouldn’t have him, or the other one, and I blame your lady sister for that. She frosted up as if I’d suggested selling her boy to a mummer’s show or making a eunuch out of him, and when Lord Arryn said the child was going to Dragonstone to foster with Stannis Baratheon, she stormed off without a word of regrets and all the Hand could give me was apologies." GoT

And then in SoS when she went all crazy over Sansa and started to spill all the beans she said...

"Jon wished to send my sweet Robert to Dragonstone, and that sot of a king would have given him to Cersei Lannister, but I never let them . . . no more than I’ll let you steal my Petyr Littlefinger."


Probably Lysa was terrified at the idea of little Robert been taken away, like everytime someone suggested something alike (Cat offered Winterfell), LF just saw an opportunity and provided Lysa with the poison.  A couple of days later Jon Arryn mysteriously died. Lysa sending the letter to Winterfell was without doubt LF's  scheme, but Jon Arryn death was Lysa's  business.

Edited by Ami WhoSingSongsOfTheEarth, 27 November 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[FacelessDude]

Does it say that Joffrey did it, like for sure in ASOS? I've read all 5 books and I think Cersei mentions it or something. I don't think Joffrey really had a strong motive to hire the assassin.

[Ser Shaanoh the Swift]

FacelessDude, on 09 December 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

Does it say that Joffrey did it, like for sure in ASOS? I've read all 5 books and I think Cersei mentions it or something. I don't think Joffrey really had a strong motive to hire the assassin.

Yes Faceless,

  Like you I have completed 5 books and missed this plot.. Iam on reread.. And Yes, it was Joff who hires the assasin with Robert's blade and tries to give mercy killing to bran..

[Dogpile]

I posted this on another thread before I found this one.

The whole mystery about who's man tried to kill Bran with the knife Littlefinger later tells Catelyn belonged to him at one point is interesting. Littlefinger says he lost the knife in a bet to Tyrion. Spread out through multiple books we listen to several conversations between the Lannisters all talking to each other about which one of them might have done it and all of them denying it to each other. I find this hysterical. "I didn't do it, did you do it? No why the hell would I do it! (not an actual quote ) We're sort of led to believe that  Joffrey arranged the attempted murder due to the " I am no stranger to Valarian Steel" comment. Maybe but maybe not.

On the re-read catch this: Maester Luwin tells Ned and Cat a carved wooden box was left in his chamber while he was asleep and no one saw who left it. It's the box with the Myrish lens that contains Lysa's hidden message accusing the Lannisters of murdering Jon Arryn. This is before Bran falls.

This obviously means Lysa/Littlefinger have an unknown operative inside Winterfell and maybe it's their catspaw that tries to murder Bran. I kinda think the big bag of the would be assassin's silver they find hidden in the stable points more toward Littlefinger.

[Grandpa House]

Ami Moonsinger, on 27 November 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

I agree with most of your points except 1, I have the impresion that Jon Arryn death was caused by his intention of giving his son to be fostered by Stannis in Dragonstone, maester Colemon share this with Cat when she was in the Eyrie and later Lord Frey said the same thing in the Twins and provides some details: he went to KL to see his sons in a tourney, probably Joff day of name tourney and ...

Both are probably be true, as in Littlefinger used Lysa's anger over this to persuade her...

[Neddy's Girl]

otherbeef, on 17 November 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

are we sure it was Joffrey who did it? i mean Tyrion assumes it was him but the only evidence he has is that Joffrey said he is no stranger to valyrian steel or something like that, and the blade in question is valyrian steel. meanwhile Cersei's pinning it on Joffrey only made me think it was actually her and was looking to lay the blame elsewhere (something she has done often)

Sorry for the edit!  Just getting used to this!

I'm now starting to have doubts that it was Joff as IIRC there are only the 2 pieces of evidence that point towards him and both are circumstantial.  He could just be boasting when he speaks of Valyrian steel.  And, I'm not sure it is in his character to seek approval from Robert as Cersei says; I can much more see him trying to impress "Uncle" Jaime.

So I think this leaves some room for doubt; however, it may well have been Joff, it's just this thread got me thinking.

Edited by Neddy's Girl, 09 January 2013 - 12:53 PM.

[Neddy's Girl]

Grandpa House, on 22 December 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

Both are probably be true, as in Littlefinger used Lysa's anger over this to persuade her...

Plus, IMO, Littlefinger needed to get Ned away from the relatively safe and isolated North to start some Stark/ Lannister conflict, so he created a job vacancy for him.

[GrimReaper]

I think this point hasn't been made, and it's an important point because it gives us insight into Littlefinger's character and motivations. He did not know that the dagger was used to attack Bran. When Cat comes to KL with Ser Rodrik, both LF and Varys show surprise at the conditions of her bandaged hands. Varys goes as far as to suggest it was burns, and that Pycelle will give her a salve. LF himself murmurs ,"Your hands..."

The reason this gives us insight into LF is because LF was always looked down upon his entire life, because of his birth, etc etc. He made it to Master of Coin pretty much on his own merit -- whether that is manipulation or help from Lysa or whatever. The point is he didn't have the massive advantage of a royal House backing him. Also, he was humiliated by Brandon Stark, and his child with Lysa was aborted etc etc. And LF has always considered himself smart, so much smarter than everyone else who gets to higher office because of their noble status. This would doubtless create massive resentment against the noble houses in his head.

I think this is why he murdered Jon Arryn. Arryn had no notable heir (Robert Arryn is a sickly child, we all know), and Lysa was tractable. Once Jon Arryn was out of the way, all LF had to do was create strife amongst the other noble houses. He knows there is no love lost between the Lannisters and Stark, so he used that to get Lysa to write that letter to Cat telling her the Lannisters were behing Arryn's murder. Easy peasy, LF got Stark vs. Lannisters right there.

The reason he brands Tyrion with Bran's attempted assasination is a) Tyrion isn't around to defend himself. He is a Lannister, and it just helps with the strife. I don't think LF lies about the fact that the dagger was his, seeing as how he handled it with so much ease. Remember Varys cut himself with it, whereas LF spun it from the blade-side. All he did was lie about who won that bet on Joffrey's name-day tourney. King Robert won it (which is why the Queen got her emerald back -- I mean, really, can any of us see why Tyrion would return Cercei's jewel to her, after winning it fairly? And also he doesn't bet against Jaime, not to mention Robert was most like to bet against Jaime, Robert never liked Jaime. And also how during the Hand's tourney, Renly makes a comment on how he'd have won more if Tyrion was around etc). LF makes up the lie about Tyrion last owning the dagger, and thus being behind Bran's attempted killing, merely to further war.

The way the story is written is pretty telling. He is watching Cat's face, as is Varys, and he has known Cat since she was a girl. Seeing as how she is in KL in disguise, staying in a cheap inn, LF knows that she is here in secret, and that the secret cannot be anything good. She obviosuly fears for her safety, which is why she has been in disguise. He clocks all this in, understands she is in KL to find the owner of the dagger, and knows that whoever the owner is, is going to be in toruble with the Starks. This is why he names Tyrion.

My point is, at this point, LF doesn't know that the dagger was used with the intention of killing Bran. He just says it because he knows it will bode badly for the owner, and it is an opportunity to further the Stark vs. Lannister theme. I think LF's ultimate motivation is to see ALL the great Houses fall, which will give his not-so-noble name vindication.