29 replies to this topic

[SaltSmokeAndSnow]

Wynter Manderly, on 10 January 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Paying for timber sounds normal to me. I mean even if they say the ironborn pays with iron price, you almost always have to have a sword first and I don't think all ironborn were able to pay the iron price for their first sword. similarly, i'd think their first boat would likely to have been bought.

They don't need to pay for anything though. Just like any other group of people, the Ironborn would have smiths to make arms and armor, and builders to build ships and keeps. This is how every group of self-sustaining people came to be. No one group of settlers ever bought their way into being a civilization. The Iron Islanders built their strength, and when their resourses were tapped, rather than trading or paying the gold price, they killed and pillaged for what they needed.

[Tourniquet]

Ships also last quite a long time if they aren't used in war/battle. I'm sure most of the current fleet of ships are run-down old-timers.

[Lord of Handle]

SaltSmokeAndSnow, on 26 December 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

To me, the Old Way of the Ironborn would say that 1 good ship with a good Captain and a crew of Ironmen is more than enough to overcome and commandeer another ship. 2 ships becomes 4, and so on until they've aquired a fleet.
It may not have originated that way but once they run out of resourses, the Iron Islanders would be far more likely to grow there fleet via the true Old Way rather than trading. Victorion does it in ADwD.
They could use this method of aquiring lesser ships, sail them back to the Islands, break them down and use the materials to build true war ships.

But how would they be able to do that in peacetime? I was under the impression that with a few exceptions there has been much less reaving of the other Seven Kingdoms going on in the last 300 years. Sailing all the way to the Stepstones and Essos to commandeer new ships doesn't seem like a very efficient way of building a fleet of several hundred ships.

Tourniquet, on 11 January 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Ships also last quite a long time if they aren't used in war/battle. I'm sure most of the current fleet of ships are run-down old-timers.

But Stannis destroyed or captured most of the Iron Fleet in the Battle of Fair Isle. Most of the ships of the current Iron Fleet can't be more than 10 years old.

[SaltSmokeAndSnow]

Lord of Handle, on 12 January 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

But how would they be able to do that in peacetime? I was under the impression that with a few exceptions there has been much less reaving of the other Seven Kingdoms going on in the last 300 years. Sailing all the way to the Stepstones and Essos to commandeer new ships doesn't seem like a very efficient way of building a fleet of several hundred ships.

Yup. My response(s) to the OP were to state how it seems to me the Iron Islanders built their strength during the Old Way. I can't speak to how many ships they had at the beging of asoiaf compared to 300 years before that of 1000 years before that. Still just feels wrong to say that they would buy lumber rather than just find someway or some place to go take it.

[TheIronVictorie]

They import from westoros, there are still dealers willing to do bussines with them (for the rigjt price) but most of all, theyre pirates 90 % of the ships are stolen, renamed and repaired

[Charerg]

I'd say they almost certainly trade a lot more these days than they used to. They seem to practice piratism only to a very limited decree during peacetime. For example, I think Asha mentions in ADWD that se was trading in the Arbor (and had called at Fair Isle and Lannisport before that) when she met Qarl the Maid.

I'd imagine their primary export is iron, as well as various exotic goods acquired by practicing piracy along the Stepstones. Maybe they got lucky and captured a few ships from the far east packed with gold and gems after their failed rebellion, and that's how they managed to rebuild the Iron Fleet?

Edited by Charerg, 12 March 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[Leap]

If I remember correctly (I probably don't) at least one of the islands has trees on. If not, I'd be forced to agree with many above people. The economy, especially in Robert's day and especially in the North , is too poor to be able to afford to not sell wood to bidders with even the wealth of a poor house such as Greyjoy. Also, I see no reason why the Ironborn wouldn't be able to land at places on the shores of Westeryos and go and cut their own trees down where it was more sparsely populated.

[megamutt]

Cregan Quagg, on 25 November 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

I always assumed that at least one of the Iron Islands is fairly forested. My top pick was Orkmont and what do you know, in the new maps Orkmont actually looks like a tree-covered island (I'm basing this on the cover of the maps box -- I haven't ordered the maps yet myself so I may be wrong). At any rate, an area can be covered with pines and still have very poor soil.

Ran's explanation makes sense, I reckon most of the resources are acquired through trade. But the Orkmont thing makes sense in my head as a back-up source of timber.

yep, Orkmont has a forest

[img]http://imageshack.us...rkmont.jpg[/img]

http://imageshack.us...80/orkmont.jpg/

[Charerg]

Also, I read that Viking settlers of Greenland (unforested apart from some really small and twisted trees) acquired wood for building ships and houses by taking it from the Canadian coast, so I guess it's very plausible that they would "raid for wood" along Cape Kraken and Sea Dragon Point, or even along the Stony Shore (although the Stony Shore seems somewhat populated).

Also, about their numbers of ships, apparently at least according to Wikipedia (and since a book I read says the same I suppose this is from original sources) the Vikings sailed as many as 700 ships up the Seine to lay siege to Paris in 885. Although wikipedia also says that these 700 ships carried as many as 30 000 men, while Paris was defended by 200 and still managed to defeat the Vikings, so the "700 ships" figure might be an exaggeration. Anyways the point is that the fleets the Vikings historically used seem rather large as well, so maybe the idea of the ironmen having 500 ships isn't as far fetched as one might think at first.

In addition, I made an estimate about the landmass of the Iron Islands based on this map that allows you to measure distances:

https://sites.google...nixgallery/home

I came up with 20 000 square miles (100x200 miles), which would put the isles close to modern Denmark in terms of landmass (well, actually Demark is about 16 500 sq miles). Although even then, if the population of the Isles is say, 0.8 million, it would put the population density to 40/sq mile, which is probably significantly higher than any other region in Westeros. Maybe the culture of taking thralls and salt wives results in overpopulation which leads to all the raiding (the Reader does mention in AFFC that the ironborn need more land)?

Edited by Charerg, 13 March 2013 - 10:45 AM.

[IRON BANK]

the iron born are reavers, pirates, and traders so i would guess they steal, and buy all there bulding materials. it seems to me through the Theon point of views that their economy is not in the best shape.