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Coldhands - Precedent for Jon 2.0?


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#1 Cabbo

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 03:10 PM

I think that Coldhands' nature sets up a precedent for Jon Snow's possible resurrection in Winds of Winter (if that's what's going to happen).

In his introductory scene, it appears as though Coldhands is able to control ravens through a form of wargery. That, or it could be the children of the forest controlling the ravens and Coldhands, but I'm going to run with the idea that Coldhands is a warg (and was capable of that power while he was alive as well).

My theory goes that Coldhands died at the cold hands of a white walker while ranging beyond the wall. Being a warg, his 'soul' left his body and screwed around for a few minutes. Meanwhile, his body was resurrected as a wight. He then re-entered his body and found a cool elk to ride around on.

I can't think of a better explanation of Coldhands' combination of human nature and wight-like features. The children of the forest one I view as being equal in logic, but I think this theory would be more useful to George as a writer.

If this is how Coldhands kept his cool, then it could set precedent for Jon Snow's complete and successful resurrection in WoW. Assuming that that'll happen.

If Jon is dead, then Melisandre might be able to resurrect him. But history shows that doing that could do bad things to Jon's noggin. Being a warg, it stands to reason that Jon has left his body after death, and will be able to re-enter it un-crazied.

Of course this isn't a new theory. I'm just trying to add a little punch to it with the Coldhands precedent. Looking at it this way does draw some similarities between wights and the red-surrected (Beric and Cat), though.

#2 Black Crow

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 03:19 PM

Coldhands is a continuing mystery but can I recommend you re-read the Varamyr prologue.

The problem is that resurrection, whether by ice or fire, requires both the arrest of the process of decay and the simultaeous awakening of the spirit sleeping within. A warg, as demonstrated by Varamyr will leave his or her body at death, whiz around momentarily and then settle down to a Second Life in a convenient familiar. The problem of course being that he or she can't then warg out again and is doomed to cosily fade away. Zipping back into their original body isn't an option, because if nobody's home so to speak, the body can't be revived. When Varamyr, in One Eye looked over that crowd of wights at the end of his prologue he could see Thistle, but his own body was conspicuous by its absence.

#3 Cabbo

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 03:44 PM

True, but he was already dead before the white walkers came, whereas Thistle was not. I don't think we've seen a wight created from a body that wasn't killed by a white walker.

If there's another, clearer example of this kind of thing, or if there is an example of a wight being made from a body killed before white walkers arrive, then the theory is kaput (edit; not necessarily as there may be other reasons explaining Varamyr's body's absence, but I'd view it as sufficient evidence against my theory).

edit: on a side note, if it is possible to resurrect a body sans-soul, this doesn't give Jon long to get back into his original body.

Edited by Cabbo, 18 November 2012 - 03:56 PM.


#4 NitzanLeo

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 03:48 PM

Black Crow is right. Another reason for the idea being a little flawed is that we already know that (as a fluctuating value), one man out of a thousand is born a warg. If so, then there would have been thousands of Coldhands during the Long Night, and I doubt that would have left no evidence in Westerosi history. It is much more likely that he is just something we still do not know about, and there aren't any pieces of string we can tie to his condition yet. I believe we'll know the full story of Coldhands by TWOW, just because I think the title tells us something.

#5 Cabbo

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 04:00 PM

I'll accept that. It seems unlikely that GRRM would write the story like this and not realize there should be a few hundred Coldhands.

(spelling edited)

Edited by Cabbo, 18 November 2012 - 04:03 PM.


#6 Ser Endrew Tarth

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:14 AM

That's why Old-school vampires never made sense to me... If they bite someone who then becomes a vampire, then vampires would over-run the world LOL. So yes good point, there would definitely be multiple wargs in CH position if this were the case which we've had no evidence of... yet.

#7 JJtheCrow

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:32 PM

The OPs theory could still hold true. I mean...how many wargs are out there?

#8 bastardsofbaratheon

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:40 PM

i really like all these theories, but I think cold hands is Robert Baratheon.

Thoros of Myr was known to be good friends with Robert. they were drinking buddies and he was in or near kings landing at the time of Robert's death (he fought in melee during the tourney of the hand) he brought beric dondarrion back to life as well as cat, so why not Robert?

but you ask: " why would Robert not reclaim his throne after his resurrection?"

well, I can only speculate about when he was brought back, but it could have been after Ned and stannis revealed the true father of the Baratheon children, and he was ashamed of what cersei had done to him. or perhaps he was drawn north by the powers that live beyond the wall. or maybe he was drawn back there because of his love of lyanna.

cold hands relationship of the animals is reflective of Roberts. Robert beat joffrey once tormenting/killing an animal (I forgot what kind). plus he rides an ELK. Very similar to a stag. plus grrm mentions that cold hands slays a boar (Robert was killed by a boar) feed bran and his companions.

and why would a wight need to cover his face unless he is the most famous man in westeros?

now, that being said I cannot explain how he knows of the secret passages under and through the wall. and I know they can only be open by men of the watch. but maybe one of the dead men of the watch told him where the doors were. and maybe Sam's presence is what opened them.

the last part is a little far fetched but I do believe my theory has some merit to it. I would love to hear what you all think.

#9 Quiet Isle

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:06 PM

Coldhands is a continuing mystery but can I recommend you re-read the Varamyr prologue.

The problem is that resurrection, whether by ice or fire, requires both the arrest of the process of decay and the simultaeous awakening of the spirit sleeping within. A warg, as demonstrated by Varamyr will leave his or her body at death, whiz around momentarily and then settle down to a Second Life in a convenient familiar. The problem of course being that he or she can't then warg out again and is doomed to cosily fade away. Zipping back into their original body isn't an option, because if nobody's home so to speak, the body can't be revived. When Varamyr, in One Eye looked over that crowd of wights at the end of his prologue he could see Thistle, but his own body was conspicuous by its absence.

BTW, Burn Gorman was just cast as Coldhands.

#10 lozeldatkm

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:11 PM

BTW, Burn Gorman was just cast as Coldhands.

Seriously? I just googled it and all I found were rumors. Did something more concrete just come out?

#11 Iceborn

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:24 PM

A lot of these threads assume Jon is dead, we den't know this, people survive some BIG wounds in there books, Bran fell from a tower and he was ten. Presuming someone gets hold of Jon before someone decapitates him or cuts his throat he has quite a good chance of being healed by either Aemon, or Mel as she seems to like him.

#12 lozeldatkm

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:27 PM

Um... I guess don't look at the spoiler tag if you haven't finished Feast for Crows yet, but...
Spoiler

But I completely agree that Jon's story isn't just over like that. It just isn't. He'll live, most likely, or be resurrected if not.

#13 otherbeef

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:08 PM

If Jon is dead, then Melisandre might be able to resurrect him. But history shows that doing that could do bad things to Jon's noggin. Being a warg, it stands to reason that Jon has left his body after death, and will be able to re-enter it un-crazied.


isn't it only Cat who has turned crazy after being revived? and this was due to the length of time after being killed before being revived?

Beric Dondarrion was killed 7 times and was still a relatively normal guy, the only effects he felt were losing his pre-war memories. I don't see why Jon being brought back once would change his personality much (though the fact his own men mutinied him is bound to make him angry even if he doesn't die)

#14 Black Wolf Smith

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:38 AM

Seriously? I just googled it and all I found were rumors. Did something more concrete just come out?

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1218607/ IDK if its concrete, but it is listed on imdb.

Back to the OP, I think that 1. Coldhands is the NK, and his plight is rather a unique. 2. Jon isn't dead, so I don't find much credit to your theory.

#15 lozeldatkm

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:24 PM

^It says rumored on IMDB, and doesnt give a character

#16 Lion of Judah

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:39 PM

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1218607/ IDK if its concrete, but it is listed on imdb.

Back to the OP, I think that 1. Coldhands is the NK, and his plight is rather a unique. 2. Jon isn't dead, so I don't find much credit to your theory.

Keeping my fingers crossed that you are right about this.

#17 Ser Endrew Tarth

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:20 AM

i really like all these theories, but I think cold hands is Robert Baratheon.

Thoros of Myr was known to be good friends with Robert. they were drinking buddies and he was in or near kings landing at the time of Robert's death (he fought in melee during the tourney of the hand) he brought beric dondarrion back to life as well as cat, so why not Robert?

but you ask: " why would Robert not reclaim his throne after his resurrection?"

well, I can only speculate about when he was brought back, but it could have been after Ned and stannis revealed the true father of the Baratheon children, and he was ashamed of what cersei had done to him. or perhaps he was drawn north by the powers that live beyond the wall. or maybe he was drawn back there because of his love of lyanna.

cold hands relationship of the animals is reflective of Roberts. Robert beat joffrey once tormenting/killing an animal (I forgot what kind). plus he rides an ELK. Very similar to a stag. plus grrm mentions that cold hands slays a boar (Robert was killed by a boar) feed bran and his companions.

and why would a wight need to cover his face unless he is the most famous man in westeros?

now, that being said I cannot explain how he knows of the secret passages under and through the wall. and I know they can only be open by men of the watch. but maybe one of the dead men of the watch told him where the doors were. and maybe Sam's presence is what opened them.

the last part is a little far fetched but I do believe my theory has some merit to it. I would love to hear what you all think.


Are you sure the "last part" is the only far-fetched part lol. If Beric had done this he would not have been so surprised when the kiss of fire worked on Beric dondarrion.

#18 armidil0

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:34 AM

http://asoiaf.wester...f/#entry3803066

My two cents on Warging and 'souls'. Take a look, I think everything I point out makes sense and I based it off of the Varymyr prologue. Then go back and re-evaluate your original idea if you agree with some of my points. I thik Coldhands could be a pecedent for Jon, but not in the same way you think so.

#19 Feather Crystal

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:41 AM

If Varamyr could have warged his dead body, then I think he would have done it. Because he didn't, then I don't think that's an option.

#20 lozeldatkm

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:06 PM

What do you mean? He did. Varamyr warged into a wolf right before he died.