38 replies to this topic

[armidil0]

Wolf=/=dead body.

[lozeldatkm]

oh ok. I get what she was asking now. Nevermind.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Lion Of Judah, on 02 December 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Keeping my fingers crossed that you are right about this.

There is a heretic theory that all of the powerfull wargs have had some type of traumtic event in their life, before they fully came into there powers.

Varamyr = the whole killing sibling/being killed as a dog/taking away from his family thing as a child.
Bloodraven = lost his eye in battle with his half brother Bittersteal.
Bran = the fall, and the loss of his legs
and to a lesser extent Arya = loss of eye sight, after which she was able to warg a cat (before that other then wolf dreams, she did not seem to have much power)

With that being said, the whole chapter that Jon is stabbed in, is off. Many of the people act off/ out of character, and those who do the stabbing seemed shocked at what is happening. If you add in the Morgane theory, it seems as if the stabbing was staged/ set in motion by someone/something else. All of this is a way to bring out the warg in Jon, and it is likely that he will see the 3EC in dreams as he recovers from his wounds.

[lozeldatkm]

I doubt the 3EC is going to have anything to do with Jon. He appeared to Bran, not to awaken him as a warg, but to summon him to become a greenseer. Quite different.

[Black Crow]

Not quite. When Jon was up in the Frostfangs, Bran appeared to him in a dream (as a weirwood) and prodded him hard in the forehead so that he would open his third eye long enough to see Mance's camp through Ghost's eyes.

It was only a temporary opening though and to open it properly he's going to need another visit either from Bran or from the Crow. In our discussions of the process over on the Heresy channel we reckoned its not traumatic injury per se which allows the opening but sensory deprivation - both Bran and Jojen in a coma, (probably) Bryn Blackwood in the black cells, and soon Jon in whatever darkness he ends up in.

[lozeldatkm]

Ok, I suppose that makes sense. I apologize, but I haven't really followed the heresy thread. I tried, but it just grows too fast to keep up with.

[Black Crow]

No apology necessary. If they had speed cameras on this board we'd probably have been arrested long ago.

[MostInterestingManWesteros]

Black Crow, on 04 December 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Not quite. When Jon was up in the Frostfangs, Bran appeared to him in a dream (as a weirwood) and prodded him hard in the forehead so that he would open his third eye long enough to see Mance's camp through Ghost's eyes.

It was only a temporary opening though and to open it properly he's going to need another visit either from Bran or from the Crow. In our discussions of the process over on the Heresy channel we reckoned its not traumatic injury per se which allows the opening but sensory deprivation - both Bran and Jojen in a coma, (probably) Bryn Blackwood in the black cells, and soon Jon in whatever darkness he ends up in.

That scene has always been extremely interesting to me. It's fairly obviously significant, but i feel like it doesn't really get discussed enough. How is Bran doing this, when, where etc. dont mean to derail the thread, just saying...                                            

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

lozeldatkm, on 04 December 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Ok, I suppose that makes sense. I apologize, but I haven't really followed the heresy thread. I tried, but it just grows too fast to keep up with.

It's like the old school horror movie the Blob, lol it grows as it devours new crackpot theories and connections.  

I'm not knocking it, some great finds come out of there, but I don't frequent them either.

@Black Crow  Do you see that dream where Jon speaks to WeirBran as something from the future?  Or do you (as I do) believe Bran was tapping potential as he slept in the dark crypts (he wakes up and references speaking w/ Jon in his dream)

[Dolorous Nedd]

I have a strong feeling that Jon will be revived as a regular person.  It just doesn't seem likely he would be revived as an entity that basically can't interact with other people.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Dolorous Nedd, on 05 December 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

I have a strong feeling that Jon will be revived as a regular person.  It just doesn't seem likely he would be revived as an entity that basically can't interact with other people.

I am inclined to agree with you, but GRRM does surprise me...  a lot lol.

[Black Crow]

Ser Endrew Tarth, on 04 December 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

It's like the old school horror movie the Blob, lol it grows as it devours new crackpot theories and connections.  

I'm not knocking it, some great finds come out of there, but I don't frequent them either.

@Black Crow  Do you see that dream where Jon speaks to WeirBran as something from the future?  Or do you (as I do) believe Bran was tapping potential as he slept in the dark crypts (he wakes up and references speaking w/ Jon in his dream)

Been at work - no this one was definitely Bran in the crypt

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Black Crow, on 05 December 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

Been at work - no this one was definitely Bran in the crypt

Ok cool thanks for answering.

I guess I would rather Jon become a coldhands 2.0 than a R'llor fire zombie.  IDK I just feel CH has a better existence than Cat or Beric (tho being any kind of zombie prob sux).

[Mist Isle]

There is another possibility about how Jon Snow could turn out like Coldhands:

Jon Snow took his vows in front of a heart tree, which might protect him from turning completely into a wight.  If this is true, then Jon could die from the attack that he suffered and then be revived by the Others, but turn out like Coldhands and retain sentience and free will.

Edited by Mist Isle, 10 December 2012 - 06:14 PM.

[Duckfield]

I don't think so, since Night Watch men aslo turned into wights after they died, and some swore their oaths infront of a heart tree as well. So, let's say, given the large amount of NW casualties on the Fist of the first men, I'm sure some of the dead were northmen who swore to a heart tree, so does that mean that now there a few more 'Coldhands' walking around?
I just don't think it has anything to do with how they swore their oath, it's got to be something else (probably COTF related)

[Mist Isle]

Perhaps efforts to revive a person through the Weirwood magic (if this is possible) results in the person turing out like Coldhands (who would have been revived by greenseer magic before turning into a wight).  If true, then Bran or Blood Raven could revive Jon Snow in this way (Theon's execution would enable the process).  The magic of the Others could bear similarities to the magic of the CotF so the outcome of a potential Weirwood revival might result in a person exhibiting some characteristics common to wights.

The spell would probably require a blood sacrifice (of a type resulting in death) to a heart tree. Blood Raven and/or the CotF probably needed someone to travel to and from their remote outpost so perhaps they restored Coldhands to perform this role.

Bran's dream about Jon's skin growing cold and pale as the memory of all warmth fled from him seems at least somewhat suspicious on the point of Jon Snow's fate.

Edited by Mist Isle, 11 December 2012 - 03:06 PM.

[The Sunset King]

Black Crow, on 18 November 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

Coldhands is a continuing mystery but can I recommend you re-read the Varamyr prologue.

The problem is that resurrection, whether by ice or fire, requires both the arrest of the process of decay and the simultaeous awakening of the spirit sleeping within. A warg, as demonstrated by Varamyr will leave his or her body at death, whiz around momentarily and then settle down to a Second Life in a convenient familiar. The problem of course being that he or she can't then warg out again and is doomed to cosily fade away. Zipping back into their original body isn't an option, because if nobody's home so to speak, the body can't be revived. When Varamyr, in One Eye looked over that crowd of wights at the end of his prologue he could see Thistle, but his own body was conspicuous by its absence.

If this is the case, wouldn't the implication be that Jon (if he warged the wolf) is permanently trapped in Ghost if his body does indeed die?  If it is true that a (now dead) body which a warg recently exited for a familiar is impossible to ressurrect, there would be pretty much no way to bring Jon back if his body has perished.  Depending on the point of view, that could be worse than the fate of a Coldhands type of existence.  It is also possible that Jon did not warg Ghost and died in a fashion like Beric, in which case the above would not be all that relevant to the specific situation in question.

An alternate possibility, if the Varamyr prologue only applies to the type of wight rezzing conducted by Others, might be that a revival would rip him and out of the wolf and stuff his consciousness back in his own, albeit changed, body.

It seems likely that both fire and ice versions of revival have significant costs.  If Jon is revived through a blood offering to a weirwood or some kind of green magic, he may well receive become quite different from before.  Perhaps that is what the Bran dream of his skin growing "pale and hard" meant.  In fact, it could be that the only difference between the potential green magic style of revival and that of the Others is that the wight retains sentience in the former, unlike the latter.

Edited by The Sunset King, 11 December 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[Black Crow]

Its an interesting idea, and I honestly don't know how Jon is going to get out of his present predicament, beyond the assurance offered by GRRM's "Oh, you think he's dead do you?".

However, I do believe the purpose of the Varamyr prologue is that it won't be as simple as nipping across to Ghost and then warging back into his own body when Mel revives it. Apart from anything else, why bother whizzing across to Ghost in the first place if all he has to do is wait for Mel to kiss him better.

[borwin]

Possibly I think perhaps Cold Hands was created by the The Eyed Crow.

"No" said Leaf. "He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death."

Based off of what Leaf says in ADWD, I think that it is possible for Greenseers to call back the dead, but it is forbidden.

Of course with Bran's track record of doing things hes not supposed too, I think that he will use his powers to call Jon's spirit back to his body.

Edited by borwin, 12 December 2012 - 05:45 AM.