438 replies to this topic

[red snow]

Winterfell is Burning, on 11 December 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

Gillen is an unlucky bastard- he gets Uncanny, yes, but it's drawn by Greg Land. Even with the most shameless artist in comics, and no Wolverine or Spider-Man, he makes it the top selling book at Marvel, and yet when comes an event that features the characters he's writing as key players...he doesn't even get an invitation to be a part of the planning, and has to play damage control. He does a good job at it, and his prize is...he's off the book. But at least he gets Iron Man, so it's not all bad... oh, wait, he's stuck with Land again.

You actually have a really good point there. The odds were stacked against him yet he did make it a top selling book (was it really Marvel's top book?). I never thought about him not being involved in AxX and his exclusion does seem odd given he was writing the flagship title of one of the two franchises. Maybe he's done something to piss off Brevoort (like write a positive story about Cyclops). What seems even more mad is that they then replace Gillen with the guy who was writing Avengers.
I'm sure the paychecks are good but Gillen takes a lot of shit while doing so. If he was at DC he'd be regarded as Snyder good (unless he was Gail Simone). It reminds me of what Paul Cornell said wrt Gail's firing (and between the lines his own treatment at DC) about there needing to be some kind of comic writers union where there should be some kind of compensation if you are fired from a title that has increased in sales while you're writing it.


Greg Land was highly regarded back when he was doing Sojourn for crossgen. Maybe the guy spends a lot of time looking at porn on the net and he figured it is an efficient use of his job? Worse ways of making a living, I guess.  Is he that fast though? He seems to have spent the last few years doing a couple of issues on multi-artist titles.

The LAAAND page is quite funny. It also shows how Larocca can sometimes fall prey to photoshop fever in an even lazier style. On the brightside his Cable and X-force pages suggest he's going back to drawing his own stuff again.

[Nephrite]

red snow, on 12 December 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

You actually have a really good point there. The odds were stacked against him yet he did make it a top selling book (was it really Marvel's top book?). I never thought about him not being involved in AxX and his exclusion does seem odd given he was writing the flagship title of one of the two franchises. Maybe he's done something to piss off Brevoort (like write a positive story about Cyclops). What seems even more mad is that they then replace Gillen with the guy who was writing Avengers.

Gillen didn't write AvX cause he wasn't one of the Architects. No big conspiracy there. And that book had too many writers anyway. It didn't really need him and Fraction and a strong black female, so that Marvel editorial doesn't seem discriminating against Brit, hipster and women writers.
Uncanny was Marvel's top book (around 60k and not in the Top 10, which is horrible) not counting events, but that's always the case for Uncanny. It was Marvel's baby before Avengers took all the money in the world. Just like Batman for DC, it's a book with a built-in fanbase that's going to buy it even if it just dongs smeared with shit over the pages.

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I'm sure the paychecks are good but Gillen takes a lot of shit while doing so. If he was at DC he'd be regarded as Snyder good (unless he was Gail Simone).

They treat Gillen like king at Marvel. He pretty much tells his story and now he got Young Avengers a book that is gonna sell like crap if the sales for other NOW books is anything to go by. And those books have Wolverine in them. Nobody cares about Miss America. Gillen & McKelvie are expensive and it would be smarter for Marvel too stick them on a Spider-Man book, than on Young Avengers.
If he was at DC he's be saddled with 3rd-tier crap like Birds of Prey or maybe the lofty position of Action Comics back-ups writer. And then he'd get fired and replaced with Giffen.

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It reminds me of what Paul Cornell said wrt Gail's firing (and between the lines his own treatment at DC) about there needing to be some kind of comic writers union where there should be some kind of compensation if you are fired from a title that has increased in sales while you're writing it.

Sooo, in a highly unlikely situation where Johns or Bendis get fired they'll get compensation, and everybody else will get squat. Including Cornell. Cause his only spike in sales was the result of stunt casting Neil Gaiman's Death into a Superman book. Simone didn't increase sales. The relaunch did.

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It also shows how Larocca can sometimes fall prey to photoshop fever in an even lazier style. On the brightside his Cable and X-force pages suggest he's going back to drawing his own stuff again.

Until Nicole Kidman and Clive Owen show up out of nowhere.

[red snow]

Marvel must must have been in a right mess for their sales to become that bad. I guess it is possible that Uncanny always has a core audience of 60k irrespective of creative teams. The fairest way will be to look at All New X-men sales compared to Uncanny X-men 1 (2011) sales. Or maybe even uncanny 1 (2011) to uncanny 1 (2013) and if the sales are far better then the change seems warranted,

I think they were saying that Simone's Batgirl title was maintaining its sales pretty well but maybe DC are noticing they can stick anyone on a title at the moment and sales remain -especially if you can tie them into a Snyder event every 3 months.
Speaking of BAtgirl - I'm wondering whether Death in the Family involves something bad happening to her? Speculation at the moment is centred on Damien dying (doubt this would happen unless it was in Morrison's title) but to me it would fit very well with Simone being fired and she has said it was due to some creative differences. I'd be surprised if they killed Barbara Gordon but it may be that something unpleasant is going to happen to her that Simone wouldn't write.

[Ouroboros]

Scuttlebutt is the dismissal was over Simone refusing to play ball on some sketchy content the editors wanted to put into Batgirl. Considering Simone has never been shy about putting some off-colour grit in her books before, it must have been something bad, if it is true. The top contender is the Joker raping Babs.

[Nephrite]

red snow, on 12 December 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

Marvel must must have been in a right mess for their sales to become that bad. I guess it is possible that Uncanny always has a core audience of 60k irrespective of creative teams. The fairest way will be to look at All New X-men sales compared to Uncanny X-men 1 (2011) sales. Or maybe even uncanny 1 (2011) to uncanny 1 (2013) and if the sales are far better then the change seems warranted,

It's hard to do this cause the number of variants and the Bendis factor, and cover price. And Gillen's relaunch was just a desperate renumbering which I think a lot of people saw right through.
Gillen's Uncanny #1 was around 109k compared to Bendis' 180k. They both dropped like rocks for the second issue 72k-98k.

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I think they were saying that Simone's Batgirl title was maintaining its sales pretty well but maybe DC are noticing they can stick anyone on a title at the moment and sales remain -especially if you can tie them into a Snyder event every 3 months.

I think the sales will drop. Simone has... how should I put this... a rabid horde of tumblr lunatics behind her.

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Speaking of BAtgirl - I'm wondering whether Death in the Family involves something bad happening to her? Speculation at the moment is centred on Damien dying (doubt this would happen unless it was in Morrison's title)

He's alive in the solicits.

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but to me it would fit very well with Simone being fired and she has said it was due to some creative differences. I'd be surprised if they killed Barbara Gordon but it may be that something unpleasant is going to happen to her that Simone wouldn't write.

If that's the case, than she is a hypocrite. She herself writes some gross shit in her books. Geoff Johns level of fucked up. And up to this point she was a good DC foot soldier. Like a female Lobdell. But, now that her character insert Mary Sue is in trouble than she suddenly goes rebel.

[red snow]

Ouroboros, on 12 December 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

Scuttlebutt is the dismissal was over Simone refusing to play ball on some sketchy content the editors wanted to put into Batgirl. Considering Simone has never been shy about putting some off-colour grit in her books before, it must have been something bad, if it is true. The top contender is the Joker raping Babs.

Simone did twitter "funny you should mention that" in response to someone saying "were you not putting enough women in refrigerators?" so I'd say there is a strong possibilty of her leaving over some gratuitous violence to a female character.
I'd be surprised if they'd go that far with the Joker although this is the company that made Identity crisis.

[Winterfell is Burning]

red snow, on 12 December 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

(was it really Marvel's top book?).

Yes, among the regular titles.

red snow, on 12 December 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

I never thought about him not being involved in AxX and his exclusion does seem odd given he was writing the flagship title of one of the two franchises. Maybe he's done something to piss off Brevoort (like write a positive story about Cyclops). What seems even more mad is that they then replace Gillen with the guy who was writing Avengers.

Nah, I don't think he did anything to piss Breevort, but rather he just didn't care- this was a "Avengers good guys, X-men bad ones", and besides, everyone involve was writing a book of the "heroes" side and were already among the "architects".

And like I've said before, Marvel will deny it, say it was planned a long time ago (it wasn't, this year's event was Age of Ultron), but the truth is this event was a reaction to both DC kicking their ass and a Breevort reaction to the X-men books overtaking the Avengers ones again.

[red snow]

So the X-men need an editor who can stand up for their line a bit more by the sounds on it. I guess this used to be Alonso but maybe he has to think "big picture" now - or more accurately "they own the movie rights to Avengers which was bigger than the X-men films have ever been and they don't own the rights to x-men". Marvel really don't promote Spidey or the x-men much now they have their own film studio. I can see the logic for the company overall but it seems really stupid from the comic-selling point of view.

[Nephrite]

Cable & X-Force #1 - Well, Larroca still traces, it's just that he doesn't bother tightening the line with inks, or at best just doodling some bits with a sharpie and  letting the colorist do the rest. My favorite panel is of a old airplane where he didn't even bother drawing the rest of its wing. It juts kind of evaporates into thin air in the middle of the panel. I guess the reference photo was cropped and using your imagination isn't what ol' Sal is payed for.
Storywise...
Hope is in this, I guess, to prove that nobody at Marvel really knows what other people are doing. They had that relatively okay "see you later" in Consequences, but here she's super-pissed at Cable cause I guess the writer didn't bother to read that book. For the rest of the book I cared even less.

Demon Knights #15 - This is like a Claremont parody. Or a comicbook version of The Room. Everybody is talking in bland exposition while Cornell is making shit up as he goes along. There's this bit with rain in Avalon that is just making me tired. Thank god for that rain otherwise how would this issue end? Maybe with someone monologuing about the nature of magic or talking out loud about future plot points? Everybody in this book is a cypher used to move the plot around, and I'm glad I'm out.

[red snow]

Nephrite, on 12 December 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

Cable & X-Force #1 - Well, Larroca still traces, it's just that he doesn't bother tightening the line with inks, or at best just doodling some bits with a sharpie and  letting the colorist do the rest. My favorite panel is of a old airplane where he didn't even bother drawing the rest of its wing. It juts kind of evaporates into thin air in the middle of the panel. I guess the reference photo was cropped and using your imagination isn't what ol' Sal is payed for.
Storywise...
Hope is in this, I guess, to prove that nobody at Marvel really knows what other people are doing. They had that relatively okay "see you later" in Consequences, but here she's super-pissed at Cable cause I guess the writer didn't bother to read that book. For the rest of the book I cared even less.

Demon Knights #15 - This is like a Claremont parody. Or a comicbook version of The Room. Everybody is talking in bland exposition while Cornell is making shit up as he goes along. There's this bit with rain in Avalon that is just making me tired. Thank god for that rain otherwise how would this issue end? Maybe with someone monologuing about the nature of magic or talking out loud about future plot points? Everybody in this book is a cypher used to move the plot around, and I'm glad I'm out.

So Sal Larrocca hasn't improved then? I used to really like him way back when he was doing x-men and FF (that's at least 6 years ago though). He was more likely to be accused of manga back then but I enjoyed him. I read one review claiming the book was pretty inaccessible.

I honestly thought Cornell was off of Demon Knights already. They announce and interview new writers so far in advance I lose track.

[haLobEnder]

red snow, on 12 December 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

The LAAAND page is quite funny. It also shows how Larocca can sometimes fall prey to photoshop fever in an even lazier style. On the brightside his Cable and X-force pages suggest he's going back to drawing his own stuff again.

This has me questioning some of my favourite artists now. Like Rodin Esquejo -- the guys output is quite high for someone who draws as detailed as he does.

[Sci-2]

If Simone left because they were gonna rape Batgirl, good for her. I know Secret Six had one of the most fucked up female characters of all time, but I still can't stand the idea of Identity Crisis's bullshit staining even more of DC....

Though I guess that book never happened now. That's something good to come out of New 52.

[Nephrite]

red snow, on 12 December 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

So Sal Larrocca hasn't improved then?

It's okay. The characters are consistent and not based on movie stars, so that's an improvement. But, he really just phoned in the backgrounds.

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I honestly thought Cornell was off of Demon Knights already. They announce and interview new writers so far in advance I lose track.

This was his last ish.


And here is your META moment of the week.

halO bendeR, on 12 December 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

This has me questioning some of my favourite artists now. Like Rodin Esquejo -- the guys output is quite high for someone who draws as detailed as he does.

He's only doing one series and a bunch of covers. It's not really that much stuff.

Edited by Nephrite, 12 December 2012 - 01:01 PM.

[red snow]

that meta moment was quite funny. If I'd been made to guess who the red head was I'd have said it was Mary Jane Watson and not Pepper Potts (I'm assuming that's who it was?).

From the reviews I've seen there's been a much better response to Avengers Arena than Cable and X-force which is odd considering how hated the concept for AA is. It seems that the artists are the key element though with the guy drawing AA apparently being very good and Larocca being mismatched to the tone of CAX.

[Lady Octarina]

Avengers Arena #01: not better nor worse than expected. It's not horrible, overall, the problem remains that the concept has been excessively used lately and reading this feels like reading every other story that follows it. Not to mention that now it seems they're making a movie using an idea very similar to AA about teenage vigilantes fighting to death. I gotta say, I was actually surprised when they killed that character of all, but I still doubt all those characters will stay dead for long after this is over - or rather, some might, they're pretty useless anyway, but the rest will all be brought back soon. And Arcade has never looked so much like an anime villain.

Cable and X-Force #01: interesting, for once a team comes together in a kind of organic way. Not the best use of Nemesis, though, and the Uncanny Avengers' participation so far is simply absurd. The art was mostly good, except for Hope's confrontation with Cable - everything from her posture to her closed mouth suggested she was speaking telepathically to him, which was obviously not the case. And Forge looks weird.

Fantastic Four #02: okay, except for suggesting Johnny's girlfriend might be another Dazzler. Please, let me be wrong.

The Walking Dead #105: I don't know if it's Kirkman's failed attempts at making another villain as brilliant as the Governor, or if it's the third season of the show being this good, or if this series simply should be over asap as it will never reach its prior greatness, but every new issue of TWD catches me enjoying it less. Though I am mildly curious to see what happens to Carl.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Avengers Arena #1: Well, bonus points for Hopeless to admit in universe that this book is a Hunger Games rip-off, but still feels hopeless (get it?) predictable, cliched and non-sensical- two unmarried people are shown having sex and then one dies? How shocking. The situation they are in makes no apparent sense yet, and I'm not sure it really will. But it has some great art and the characters that are not wallpaper are written well, so there might still be hope (get it?) for this book.

Cable and X-force #1:  Like the book above, it has some good characterization, but the premise doesn't really make all that much sense yet-Dr. Nemesis inclusion particularly feels forced. Also, this book will make absolutely no sense if you don't know these characters, new reader-friendly it ain't, but it isn't bad. Cable shooting Havok in the face makes it all worthwhile.

Winter Soldier #13: Daredevil's inclusion proved to be as pointless as it looked like in #12, just a way of Brubaker reliving his greatest hits. In that sense, the way this fight is solved is entirely predictable, and the issue mostly a waste of time, which makes a (justified for once! really!) Wolverine rant either a confession or completely clueless.

Iron Man #4: Stark looks for the Extremis, fights bad guys, etc, etc. Predictable, predictable, and dull, except for the panel Nephrite mentioned, which I am 100% sure it was no accident.

Walking Dead #105- "Hey, look at me, I'm the new Governor, just dumber and not caring about creating any feeling of security to my subjects". Meh. Quit while you're ahead Kirkman, you really don't need the comic sales anymore.

Fantastic Four #2- Pretty much the same as the other issue. Say what you want about Bendis, but he makes sure all the non-stop talking comes later in his run- at first he just blows stuff up and set things on fire. This issue doesn't really say anything about any of the characters or the mission we don't really know.

Maybe Marvel's masterplan was to reduce outcry about Arena was to release it in a week in which every major issue they published was almost as bad, if not worse? What a shitty, shitty week.  They should have released one of the Waid books so I could wipe away the bad taste it left in my mouth.

Edited by Winterfell is Burning, 12 December 2012 - 08:46 PM.

[Nephrite]

Batman & Robin #15 - Patrick Gleason drew the fuck out of Slasher-Joker. And Peter Tomasi wrote the hell out of him.
Seriously, people need to read this just for the insane stuff Joker does with his face. It's disturbing, but also over-the-top ridiculous like the premise is just flat out loud stupid that Tomasi and Gleason just go for it like rabid racoons and run with it to the bloody ground while drinking antifreeze and slapping each other with genitalia.




...


It's DC. You know they do it.


I mean the Joker here is still able to hack reality like some fucked-up homicidal Neo. When did he set up this elaborate deathtrap in the zoo? With what looks like 3 tons of bugs and worms? Where do you buy that? Where do you steal that? What if he wasn't there when Robin was? what if he was getting married to Gai-- Batgirl or something?

And where do you find the time to build trap-doors and shit? That requires some heavy bulldozing equipment working 24/7 at a public venue that police is proably ewatching for possible Penguin sightings. Where did he find that GIANT-ASS egg and then how did he put Robin inside of it? Seriously, it's like dinosaur egg. Did he teleport Damian inside hoping that gallons of yolk won't suffocate him?
Wouldn't people who come to the zoo see a guy with no face digging a huge hole in the hyenas' cage kind of freak out? Maybe they did, but the police in Gotham City is so magically retarded that The Joker can kill 25 of them with his bare hands.
His motivation is still dumb. After he deals with all the Robins is Joker gonna go after the Justice League, cause they also make Batman less special? I'd love that just for the part where Superman puts him in body cast and psychical therapy for the rest of his life. Batman would be pissed cause they seem to be star-crossed lovers according to Snyder.

[red snow]

Nephrite, on 13 December 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:

Batman & Robin #15 - Patrick Gleason drew the fuck out of Slasher-Joker. And Peter Tomasi wrote the hell out of him.
Seriously, people need to read this just for the insane stuff Joker does with his face. It's disturbing, but also over-the-top ridiculous like the premise is just flat out loud stupid that Tomasi and Gleason just go for it like rabid racoons and run with it to the bloody ground while drinking antifreeze and slapping each other with genitalia.




...


It's DC. You know they do it.


I mean the Joker here is still able to hack reality like some fucked-up homicidal Neo. When did he set up this elaborate deathtrap in the zoo? With what looks like 3 tons of bugs and worms? Where do you buy that? Where do you steal that? What if he wasn't there when Robin was? what if he was getting married to Gai-- Batgirl or something?

And where do you find the time to build trap-doors and shit? That requires some heavy bulldozing equipment working 24/7 at a public venue that police is proably ewatching for possible Penguin sightings. Where did he find that GIANT-ASS egg and then how did he put Robin inside of it? Seriously, it's like dinosaur egg. Did he teleport Damian inside hoping that gallons of yolk won't suffocate him?
Wouldn't people who come to the zoo see a guy with no face digging a huge hole in the hyenas' cage kind of freak out? Maybe they did, but the police in Gotham City is so magically retarded that The Joker can kill 25 of them with his bare hands.
His motivation is still dumb. After he deals with all the Robins is Joker gonna go after the Justice League, cause they also make Batman less special? I'd love that just for the part where Superman puts him in body cast and psychical therapy for the rest of his life. Batman would be pissed cause they seem to be star-crossed lovers according to Snyder.

I've heard good things about this issue - looking forward to reading it. Was considering dropping the title though (I still haven't read it since new52 began) but maybe I should hold off.
I'm guessing Joker is now the Wile E coyote of DCU as he seems to put a lot of effort into creating his traps. I can't remember what happened to Morrison's Wile E coyote from animal man (I think he was a meta reference to marv wolfman).

Snyder can't possibly write a more homo-erotic Superman-Batman relationship than Loeb did in Superman/Batman? He had them finishing each others sentences and it turned out when they were fighting off villains they were actually narrating the way the other one was fighting. It was like a superhero brokeback mountain. Nothing wrong with that but the fact neither of them confronted their feelings for one another was deeply sad,

[The_Gallows_Knight]

Winterfell is Burning, on 12 December 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

Avengers Arena #1: Well, bonus points for Hopeless to admit in universe that this book is a Hunger Games rip-off, but still feels hopeless (get it?) predictable, cliched and non-sensical- two unmarried people are shown having sex and then one dies? How shocking. The situation they are in makes no apparent sense yet, and I'm not sure it really will. But it has some great art and the characters that are not wallpaper are written well, so there might still be hope (get it?) for this book.

Cable and X-force #1:  Like the book above, it has some good characterization, but the premise doesn't really make all that much sense yet-Dr. Nemesis inclusion particularly feels forced. Also, this book will make absolutely no sense if you don't know these characters, new reader-friendly it ain't, but it isn't bad. Cable shooting Havok in the face makes it all worthwhile.

I actually liked Arena more than I though I would, but then I like Battle Royal quite a bit so maybe that was too be expected. However it still feels like Marvel is just using it as a way to get rid of characters that cant support their own books before the fade into comic book obscurity or get relegated to wallpaper in big events. X-23 is seriously the only one that I expect to survive.

Cable & X-Force was also better than expected. The team actually feel like an organic fit (even though Nemesis outfit still is weird). And Havok telling Cap to stand the fuck down was awesome, too bad they negated it directly afterwards. Oh, and couldn't they just have done the whole series without Hope?

Nephrite, on 13 December 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:

Batman & Robin #15 - Patrick Gleason drew the fuck out of Slasher-Joker. And Peter Tomasi wrote the hell out of him.
Seriously, people need to read this just for the insane stuff Joker does with his face. It's disturbing, but also over-the-top ridiculous like the premise is just flat out loud stupid that Tomasi and Gleason just go for it like rabid racoons and run with it to the bloody ground while drinking antifreeze and slapping each other with genitalia.




...


It's DC. You know they do it.


I mean the Joker here is still able to hack reality like some fucked-up homicidal Neo. When did he set up this elaborate deathtrap in the zoo? With what looks like 3 tons of bugs and worms? Where do you buy that? Where do you steal that? What if he wasn't there when Robin was? what if he was getting married to Gai-- Batgirl or something?

And where do you find the time to build trap-doors and shit? That requires some heavy bulldozing equipment working 24/7 at a public venue that police is proably ewatching for possible Penguin sightings. Where did he find that GIANT-ASS egg and then how did he put Robin inside of it? Seriously, it's like dinosaur egg. Did he teleport Damian inside hoping that gallons of yolk won't suffocate him?
Wouldn't people who come to the zoo see a guy with no face digging a huge hole in the hyenas' cage kind of freak out? Maybe they did, but the police in Gotham City is so magically retarded that The Joker can kill 25 of them with his bare hands.
His motivation is still dumb. After he deals with all the Robins is Joker gonna go after the Justice League, cause they also make Batman less special? I'd love that just for the part where Superman puts him in body cast and psychical therapy for the rest of his life. Batman would be pissed cause they seem to be star-crossed lovers according to Snyder.

Yeah, the artwork here was freaky as hell. The Joker playing around with his face was fucked up awesome. Even though the Joker is still way too played up, though it's not as bad as in the main Batman title.
Speaking of the Justice League, why cant Batman just call up his overpowered hero friends and have them deal with The Joker if he's such a goddamn threat?

Edited by The_Gallows_Knight, 13 December 2012 - 12:39 PM.

[Nephrite]

The_Gallows_Knight, on 13 December 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Speaking of the Justice League, why cant Batman just call up his overpowered hero friends and have them deal with The Joker if he's such a goddamn threat?

Cause Batman and his merry friends are so freaked out by Joker that they can't think straight. Seriously, they are all acting like this is the first time the Joker returned. Like it's not stardard operational bullshit. Like he didn't do it hundreds of times before. Batman stared the God of All Evil in the face and then shot him. But a man that looks like a shitty clown is freaking the fuck out of his band of highly trained ninja children. This guy is unstoppable. They can't find Alfred. Just call The Flash. He can find Alfred and punch Joker's kidneys through his nose. I know there are story reasons why they don't just have Superman clean up Gotham while Batman watches one NCIS rerun. But fuck it, since Snyder just won't shut up how omnipotent The Joker is, call in the big guns. The power of love can get the Joker far, but I'm pretty sure Green Lantern can handle him. Hell, Cyborg can handle him and he is the JLA version of the Fantasticar.