LF Requests Robert's Tapestries?

[Southron_Ambitions]

I'm reading a Cersei chapter in AFFC, and during a small council meeting Pycelle mentions that Bronze Yohn and the rest of the Vale lords are massing at the Gate of the Moon and plan to depose Littlefinger as Lord Protector of the Vale. Cersei asks what Littlefinger has said in his letter and asks Pycelle if LF has begged for assistance from the crown. Pycelle says that Littlefinger is unconcerned and all he said in his letter was he wanted Pycelle to ship him "Robert's tapestries".

WTF does Littlefinger want Robert's tapestries for?

[StuSeaworth]

I think it is just his way of saying "You guys think I'm in over my head, but I have everything under control and beyond. Please continue to fear Littlefinger"

[Miriel]

Sadly, this is a 'read and find out' question ;) There is no universally accepted theory.

Here are some links to prior speculation:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71749-littlefingers-tapestries-speculations/

[the Scorpion Knight]

other question:

how will he get them now that his pawns the kettle blacks are imprisoned and pycelle has a lethal case of slit throat?

I don't even think they were sent due to the chaos in KL (or aurane stole them)

[RoamingRonin]

other question:

how will he get them now that his pawns the kettle blacks are imprisoned and pycelle has a lethal case of slit throat?

I don't even think they were sent due to the chaos in KL (or aurane stole them)

Pycelle could have shipped them before his death? Some guesses: Littlefinger needed something from King's Landing and the tapestries can conceal whatever it is that he needs. He's going to plant them at a rival's house as evidence that that enemy is still loyal to the Baratheons. Wasn't there House that still has Targaryen tapestries hidden in their cellar?

[TheMysteriousOne]

Pycelle could have shipped them before his death? Some guesses: Littlefinger needed something from King's Landing and the tapestries can conceal whatever it is that he needs. He's going to plant them at a rival's house as evidence that that enemy is still loyal to the Baratheons. Wasn't there House that still has Targaryen tapestries hidden in their cellar?

House Darry had the hidden tapestries

[StuSeaworth]

Pycelle could have shipped them before his death? Some guesses: Littlefinger needed something from King's Landing and the tapestries can conceal whatever it is that he needs. He's going to plant them at a rival's house as evidence that that enemy is still loyal to the Baratheons. Wasn't there House that still has Targaryen tapestries hidden in their cellar?

House Darry had the Targaryen tapestries stored in a cellar that Tyrion had paid a steward to let him in and show him and Jaime. Those wouldn't have been at KL though.

The meeting they have where LF requests the tapestries is early in a feast of crows, there wouldn't be a long time period involved in sending some tapestries, pycelle lives through another book and a half (granted I know the timelines overlap for most of 4 and 5, but still ample time).

[Dr. Pepper]

He's going to plant them at a rival's house as evidence that that enemy is still loyal to the Baratheons.

That would be difficult to do seeing as there is a paper trail and witnesses of LF requesting Baratheon tapestries. Besides, who would he be trying to convince? Dany? Aegon? It's not like the Baratheon dynasty would consider someone with Baratheon tapestries an enemy. Whether everyone knows the true parentage of Tommen, he still officially sits the throne as a Baratheon.

The tapestry request definitely just seems to be a way of saying that all is well in the Vale and requesting Baratheon tapestries furthers his claims that he is their man.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Pycelle could have shipped them before his death? Some guesses: Littlefinger needed something from King's Landing and the tapestries can conceal whatever it is that he needs. He's going to plant them at a rival's house as evidence that that enemy is still loyal to the Baratheons. Wasn't there House that still has Targaryen tapestries hidden in their cellar?

those tapestries are royal possesions. cersei might have a word about them

[Bright Blue Eyes]

those tapestries are royal possesions. cersei might have a word about them

One word: "Yes". Apparently she already said it. LF claims that she is sending him the tapestries in late Feast.

[the Scorpion Knight]

One word: "Yes". Apparently she already said it. LF claims that she is sending him the tapestries in late Feast.

were they even mentioned in Cersei POV AFAIK not.

and what if it a lie?

[Booknerd2]

This never stuck out for me. So I never thought of it before. But now that I saw this thread, I really have to go check out my books and read previous threads discussing this because I was now thinking:

Robert's tapestries. What does that mean? Just showing possession? Tapestries that are Robert's or Robert's tapestries, meaning the hunting scenes in particular? If Robert has tapestries that are his, could that even mean ones that run in the family, were his parents, etc.?

They could be older Baratheon ones with specific people/family tree a la the Black family tapestry like in Harry Potter Order of the Phoenix, that depicts faces, names, and dates. Could it be like the Bayeaux tapestry? Does it commemorate Robert's battles and scenes of the road he took to get the crown? But even with battles and hunting scenes, I think that sometimes with royalty they will more often show faces, names, specific people. I looked over the Valois tapestries and even saw one with Henry VIII and his posthumous wife Jane Seymour and his son Edward in the throne room. Very clear by looks who they are. Hair color, features, etc. Even artwork, not tapestries, in which hunting scenes are depicted....I thought of Egypt and the hunting scenes I have seen with like King Tut and Ramesses II. Very apparent who the pharaoh is. And in many medieval tapestries I have seen, usually they commemorate. Not sure they have tons of random people all the time.

I wonder if it is just LF asking for them to show he is nonchalant regarding the Vale issue, or maybe he wants them for some other reason. But then again why does nobody seem to mind giving them to him? I always assumed Cersei took them down in a moment of her being spiteful because Robert loved them, and I just assumed she would put some newly commissioned ones more to her and Joff's liking maybe? I am confused as to why LF would think she would give them to him?

I am still wondering what LF wants with them. They are valuable? Or to offer them to someone he would like to ally with that would want them? Not sure about the whole smuggling stuff out like Cleopatra, but when tapestries are taken down, they are usually heavy and large and are rolled. If they stay like that and are simply sent to him, could someone send something in them? Not sure. But the big thing here is that tapestries are not just to keep out draft, or to decorate, they have info on them and can be considered records too. They depict people's likenesses at times and even textural and chronological info too.

I have more stuff but I have to think how to word my questions and thoughts better.. still marinating in my brain.

[Flig]

were they even mentioned in Cersei POV AFAIK not.

and what if it a lie?

To answer your questions:

"Does Lord Baelish seek our help?" asked Harys Swyft.

"Not as yet. In truth, he seems quite unconcerned. His last letter mentions the rebels only briefly before beseeching me to ship him some tapestries of Robert's."

Petyr laughed. "Perhaps I shall. Or better still, to our sweet Cersei. Though I should not speak harshly of her, she is sending me some splendid tapestries. Isn't that kind of her?"

Cersei mentions them and Petyr later mentions she is sending them to him in an offhand remark to Sansa(Alayne). There isn't really much room for interpretation here, Cersei got a later asking for them, so she sent them to him. One less thing sitting around to remind her of Bob.

[RoamingRonin]

That would be difficult to do seeing as there is a paper trail and witnesses of LF requesting Baratheon tapestries. Besides, who would he be trying to convince? Dany? Aegon? It's not like the Baratheon dynasty would consider someone with Baratheon tapestries an enemy. Whether everyone knows the true parentage of Tommen, he still officially sits the throne as a Baratheon.

The tapestry request definitely just seems to be a way of saying that all is well in the Vale and requesting Baratheon tapestries furthers his claims that he is their man.

You're right. The thought just came to me when I remembered the Targaryen tapestries and how Tyrion thought of the controversy there.

those tapestries are royal possesions. cersei might have a word about them

Cersei wouldn't give a hoot about Robert's possessions.

Cersei mentions them and Petyr later mentions she is sending them to him in an offhand remark to Sansa(Alayne). There isn't really much room for interpretation here, Cersei got a later asking for them, so she sent them to him. One less thing sitting around to remind her of Bob.

Welp, there it is. Maybe it's no big mystery at all. Petyr liked them and wanted them. Yay for freebies!

[Miriel]

Cersei mentions them and Petyr later mentions she is sending them to him in an offhand remark to Sansa(Alayne). There isn't really much room for interpretation here, Cersei got a later asking for them, so she sent them to him. One less thing sitting around to remind her of Bob.

LF does not make offhand remarks. He is a really good schemer who is still in the thick of his schemes. If he says it, he has thought about it and there is a reason for what he says. If he asked Cersei for the tapestries, there was some kind of an ulterior motive behind it.

And as far is Cersei is concerned, I doubt she would have just given them to LF because he asked her. This is Cersei, she is not a nice person. She is not known for giving anybody anything unless she thinks it will do her some good in some way. LF must have given her some reason to think it was a clever idea of hers to give him the tapestries.

[Flig]

LF does not make offhand remarks. He is a really good schemer who is still in the thick of his schemes. If he says it, he has thought about it and there is a reason for what he says. If he asked Cersei for the tapestries, there was some kind of an ulterior motive behind it.

Welp, there it is. Maybe it's no big mystery at all. Petyr liked them and wanted them. Yay for freebies!

Sorry bout that, I didn't mean no interpretation as to why LF wanted them, but rather as to whether he got them or not, since there was the claim that he was lying when he stated Cersei was sending them to him. My apologies.

[butterbumps!]

That would be difficult to do seeing as there is a paper trail and witnesses of LF requesting Baratheon tapestries. Besides, who would he be trying to convince? Dany? Aegon? It's not like the Baratheon dynasty would consider someone with Baratheon tapestries an enemy. Whether everyone knows the true parentage of Tommen, he still officially sits the throne as a Baratheon.

The tapestry request definitely just seems to be a way of saying that all is well in the Vale and requesting Baratheon tapestries furthers his claims that he is their man.

How deep is LF in with the Tyrells, do you think? We know a couple of things about LF's plans, one of which is his displeasure that Cersei's blowing the place to hell too quickly. So we get the sense that he's looking for KL to implode, and possibly ruin the Lannisters entirely, but needs more time. What's LF got on the burner that he needs more time for?

I wonder if he could be smuggling out the lineage book with the Baratheon banners. What he's "waiting for" might be for Stannis to lose. He absolutely does not want Stannis in power, but should Stannis be defeated, LF might have designs on pulling the rug out from under the Lannisters once and for all by revealing the incest. He needed time to cement ties with Lysa, but now that's done, I think he's milked the Lannisters for all the generosity they'll ever give him, and he does want them destroyed for the hell of it anyway. He's got Mya, and if he has the book, the incest could effectively destroy them.

LF couldn't fill the power vacuum himself; the Tyrells would, and he's already been in bed with them. I would not be surprised if he's still working with them in some capacity, as they also want the Lannisters to fall. I've never been fully convinced of the Harry the Heir scheme he reveals it to Sansa; LF doesn't gain enough from it, even if he were to marry her himself afterward. If LF exposes the Lannisters, I could imagine the Tyrells would be so appreciative that they would award him the Eyrie/ Warden of the East or some other ridiculous title outright should have the opportunity to assume power.

I know the Tyrells derive their power through a "Baratheon" marriage to Tommen, and exposure of the incest would strip their power. But if LF is waiting for Stannis' defeat, there would be no Baratheon claimants, and there would be no one to legally take power. If we go with the understanding that LF has no idea about Aegon, then it's conceivable that he's banking on the Tyrells as the last "great house" with ample support for their rule, and they're a house he's incidentally got a history with.

[Dr. Pepper]

How deep is LF in with the Tyrells, do you think? We know a couple of things about LF's plans, one of which is his displeasure that Cersei's blowing the place to hell too quickly. So we get the sense that he's looking for KL to implode, and possibly ruin the Lannisters entirely, but needs more time. What's LF got on the burner that he needs more time for?

I wonder if he could be smuggling out the lineage book with the Baratheon banners. What he's "waiting for" might be for Stannis to lose. He absolutely does not want Stannis in power, but should Stannis be defeated, LF might have designs on pulling the rug out from under the Lannisters once and for all by revealing the incest. He needed time to cement ties with Lysa, but now that's done, I think he's milked the Lannisters for all the generosity they'll ever give him, and he does want them destroyed for the hell of it anyway. He's got Mya, and if he has the book, the incest could effectively destroy them.

LF couldn't fill the power vacuum himself; the Tyrells would, and he's already been in bed with them. I would not be surprised if he's still working with them in some capacity, as they also want the Lannisters to fall. I've never been fully convinced of the Harry the Heir scheme he reveals it to Sansa; LF doesn't gain enough from it, even if he were to marry her himself afterward. If LF exposes the Lannisters, I could imagine the Tyrells would be so appreciative that they would award him the Eyrie/ Warden of the East or some other ridiculous title outright should have the opportunity to assume power.

I know the Tyrells derive their power through a "Baratheon" marriage to Tommen, and exposure of the incest would strip their power. But if LF is waiting for Stannis' defeat, there would be no Baratheon claimants, and there would be no one to legally take power. If we go with the understanding that LF has no idea about Aegon, then it's conceivable that he's banking on the Tyrells as the last "great house" with ample support for their rule, and they're a house he's incidentally got a history with.

Hmm, I'm not sure how deep he is in with the Tyrells. It's in interesting thought. They are entwined due the poisoning affair so neither are like to truly screw the other over. I agree that HtH scheme doesn't add up. LF doesn't get anything out of it. I suppose the incest/bastard scheme could be something, though I'm reluctant because simply because of the claim issue. Even if Stannis were defeated, there's still Shireen. When it comes to the lineage book, one wonders why he wouldn't have taken it to begin with. And how it would find it's way in with the tapestries (are these the same ones that adorned the Throne Room that Joff removed?) The Tyrells really don't have a claim on their own, though they likely have the manpower to stake a claim. I just don't know where Sansa plays a part in this.

[the Scorpion Knight]

How deep is LF in with the Tyrells, do you think? We know a couple of things about LF's plans, one of which is his displeasure that Cersei's blowing the place to hell too quickly. So we get the sense that he's looking for KL to implode, and possibly ruin the Lannisters entirely, but needs more time. What's LF got on the burner that he needs more time for?

I wonder if he could be smuggling out the lineage book with the Baratheon banners. What he's "waiting for" might be for Stannis to lose. He absolutely does not want Stannis in power, but should Stannis be defeated, LF might have designs on pulling the rug out from under the Lannisters once and for all by revealing the incest. He needed time to cement ties with Lysa, but now that's done, I think he's milked the Lannisters for all the generosity they'll ever give him, and he does want them destroyed for the hell of it anyway. He's got Mya, and if he has the book, the incest could effectively destroy them.

LF couldn't fill the power vacuum himself; the Tyrells would, and he's already been in bed with them. I would not be surprised if he's still working with them in some capacity, as they also want the Lannisters to fall. I've never been fully convinced of the Harry the Heir scheme he reveals it to Sansa; LF doesn't gain enough from it, even if he were to marry her himself afterward. If LF exposes the Lannisters, I could imagine the Tyrells would be so appreciative that they would award him the Eyrie/ Warden of the East or some other ridiculous title outright should have the opportunity to assume power.

I know the Tyrells derive their power through a "Baratheon" marriage to Tommen, and exposure of the incest would strip their power. But if LF is waiting for Stannis' defeat, there would be no Baratheon claimants, and there would be no one to legally take power. If we go with the understanding that LF has no idea about Aegon, then it's conceivable that he's banking on the Tyrells as the last "great house" with ample support for their rule, and they're a house he's incidentally got a history with.

me thinks LF gravely underestimetes the tyrells(or at least ollenna) and stannis

to ask the question another: does LF realise that without the lannisters and tyrells he fresh meat?

[Scipio Africanus]

I wonder if he could be smuggling out the lineage book with the Baratheon banners. What he's "waiting for" might be for Stannis to lose.

LF couldn't fill the power vacuum himself; the Tyrells would, and he's already been in bed with them.

I know the Tyrells derive their power through a "Baratheon" marriage to Tommen, and exposure of the incest would strip their power.

Does anyone have the timeline, when Cercei grants LF the tapestries where Stan is at that moment? For if we go by the theory that LF wants the tapestries either to smuggle something or to prove something about Cercei's children, then he must bank on Stan dying. For indeed, if there are no Baratheon claiments left (Shireen would never garner much support), the Tyrells might just make their move and dispose Tommen, claiming the throne for themselves.

But how can LF be so sure Stan will die soon? How does it fit in with him complaining Cercei was ****ing up things so fast in KL?

We have no evidence he knows or is in contact with Aegon or Dany. Well he knows the latter exists but we don't know if he knows about Dany's Idiot Abroad adventures in Slaver's Bay.

We do know the following. LF orchastrated the PW together with the QoT. We know this because Dantos gave Sansa the hairnet with contained the poison, and Dantos was in LF's pockets.

LF came into contact with her when Tyrion sent LF to negotiate the marriage pact between Marge and Joff. We don't know what exactly was discussed, and what the Tyrells might've offered to LF personally. We don't know what LF's reward for his participation in the PW. It seems to me, he has a favour outstanding with the Tyrells, for we have not seen him in contact yet with the Tyrells since he struck out for the Vale. But that doesn't mean he is in contact through ravenmail.

Then there's the Sansa angle. I myself highly doubt LF means Sansa to marry Harry the Red Herring. But what could he have in store for her? He realizes her birthright and will undoubtedly seek some advantage through that.

People say LF is nothing without the Lannisters, but that's partly why he gets away with it. Lannisters, Tyrells etc know LF has no army or lordlings at his beck and call, and don't consider him a threat, meaning he can wheel and deal and play people against each other by getting said people to trust him.

It is certainly ironic that whatever LF's intend is, he seems poised to strike against the Lannisters, considering he has been so instrumental in shoaling up Lannister power, more so then Tywin ever could/did. It was he who betrayed Eddard and gave Cercei the Gold Cloaks, it was he who negotiated that the Tyrells married the lions, it was he who supplied "Arya" from his brothels. It was also he who tipped Cercei off that the Tyrells wanted to ship off Sansa, which prompted Tywin to marry Tyrion off to Sansa, basically giving the Lannisters a claim to Winterfell (although I doubt Tywin took any of that seriously but ok). It was LF who got Lysa to poison Jon Arryn before he could reveal his proto-dna investigation on Cercei's kids.

And now LF seems likely to bring down the Lannisters. I hope he lives long enough to accomplish that tbh, that big bully Tywin's legacy must come down to ruin.

To conclude, we don't know enough about the tapestries or his exact position with the Tyrells, but if I had to guess he's working for the Tyrells now, and will somehow bring down Tywin Lannister's legacy.