anyone ever frustrated by Lyanna's character?

[DaeneryStormBorn]

No one judges them too harshly the majority of the posts that I have seen on the forum have been in support of them following their true love. It is only some people who see the destruction that it caused and think its not right. You have been in Lyanna's situation. I would really like to hear it. Do you live in a world were you can be given to another man and you can't really do anything about it but accept? Do you also live in a world where what you do affects the lives of millions of people because they do.

If you have a person in a leadership role, one accepts to act accordingly to their station, which means accepting their duties to some people. Other characters get blasted and hated for their perceived mistakes so why not Rhaegar and Lyanna.

This post isn't about Rhaegar and Lyanna's love. Its about her characterization as a fierce warrior woman when she seems more of a woman child and the fact that in the end her only characterization will be as Jon's mother (maybe).

This

[Lady Nymeria's Ghost]

Obviously just because there are so many similarities between the two doesn't mean the ARE THE SAME PERSON. Also, we should probably also take into account the fact that, when Arya said she didn't want to have children or get married, she was still very young, whereas Lyanna was older, with a slightly different world view. I'm not saying that when she grew up she became just like Sansa, I'm saying -- a tomboy can want to be married and have children too, no?

[UnbentFury]

No one judges them too harshly the majority of the posts that I have seen on the forum have been in support of them following their true love. It is only some people who see the destruction that it caused and think its not right. You have been in Lyanna's situation. I would really like to hear it. Do you live in a world were you can be given to another man and you can't really do anything about it but accept? Do you also live in a world where what you do affects the lives of millions of people because they do.

If you have a person in a leadership role, one accepts to act accordingly to their station, which means accepting their duties to some people. Other characters get blasted and hated for their perceived mistakes so why not Rhaegar and Lyanna.

This post isn't about Rhaegar and Lyanna's love. Its about her characterization as a fierce warrior woman when she seems more of a woman child and the fact that in the end her only characterization will be as Jon's mother (maybe).

This is the greatest post of all time.

[setmyheartafire]

I think that's silly too.

If the prophecy has anything to do with Rhaegar taking Lyanna I propose that:

A. He really did go mad and actually kidnapped her to fulfill crackpot theories of spawning 3 dragon riders.

B. The only way she would grow to love him would be if he shared this crazy romantic notion with her over time and she admired his passion for the prophecy and his unwillingness to not do what he perceived to be his destiny

C. That would take awhile and there wasn't that much time so this is very doubtful

More likely he discovered her to be the Knight at Harrenhall and fell for her, she fell for him, and they ran off to be together.

Another notion I find incredibly twisted is the idea of Elia approving or even sanctioning a marriage between R&L. Yeah right. Another rival or more for her children when succession matters arise? That's crazy fan fiction.

No way.

R&L ran off together or he went nuts and kidnapped her. All this weird fanfiction stuff is crazy. How exactly would this all come to light? BranTree speaking to Jon through the weir wood?

"Your mum and Dad caused massive bloodshed but it's ok... your Dads other wife was ok with it because she was truly in love with Arthur Dayne. Art's sister was your half brothers septa across the narrow sea. She had a baby once and switched it with your Dads first wife's stillborn babe. Are you confused? I could make you some paste that helps with that..."

Don't get me wrong... totally believe J = R+ L.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

Another notion I find incredibly twisted is the idea of Elia approving or even sanctioning a marriage between R&L. Yeah right. Another rival or more for her children when succession matters arise? That's crazy fan fiction.

Well, Elia is Oberyn's sister. Maybe she was thinking of kinky threeways :leer:

Seriously now, love your post.

[DaeneryStormBorn]

Maybe you haven't been in the same situation as Lyanna, but I have. She didn't just have a baby and go die. That is probably the most harsh thing I have EVER read on these forums. I firmly don't believe that Lyanna was kidnapped. She was traveling at the time and was probably well-guarded -- the only daughter of the King in the North.......come on, people. She stood up for what she wanted, she saw what Robert was and what he would be, and she refused to go along with the social conventions and marry someone who would have treated her like shit. She wanted to be happy, and maybe she did pay the price, but I am guessing she thought those few months of happiness were worth it versus ending up like Cersei. She was a bright, spirited young woman, and I think this is what Ned means by comparing Arya to Lyanna --- they would rather be their own person than live a lie. Standing up for your rights as an invididual is absolutely incomparable to saying she has no brain.

Rhaegar wasn't happily married. He wasn't a fighter unless he had to be, he is portrayed as pretty much the ultimate romantic guy. He didn't choose to be married to Elia, it was arranged, and we know from the text she was sickly and they spent most of their time apart. I am guessing that this was a marriage of convenience... it suited their families, and gave Aerys II the heirs he desperately wanted. I think every father feels affection towards the mother of his children, but I highly doubt Rhaegar and Elia were in love romantically. Yes, it was wrong of him to cheat on and leave his spouse, but I am sure he had his reasons, AND I don't remember reading a single thing in any book saying how heartbroken or angry Elia was about this.

I think it is very sad that some readers judge Rhaegar and Lyanna so harshly for their actions.

How could you suggest that Cersei and Lyanna would have the same outcome if Lyanna married Robert? Robert loves Lyanna, Do you think he would be the same if he had Married Lyanna? Do you think he would be calling cersei name or someone else name on their first day as husband and wife. Do you think Robert will still keep on whoring if the chance is he might lose Lyanna? He went to War because of her. So I pretty much doubt that he would treat lynna as he treated Cersei.

[setmyheartafire]

And no I don't think it's out of character to fall in love and become a mother. Mothers can be fierce as any warrior. I don't think she became Rhaegars baby receptacle. I think she was willfull, wanted this romantic beautiful prince, and ran off with him in typical headstrong fashion.

Nothing wrong with it. I don't see why she and Arya have to forsake their femininity to fight with swords. They might want to do as they wish but that doesn't mean they aren't still women with hearts to fall in love.

[Florina Laufeyson]

How could you suggest that Cersei and Lyanna would have the same outcome if Lyanna married Robert? Robert loves Lyanna, Do you think he would be the same if he had Married Lyanna? Do you think he would be calling cersei name or someone else name on their first day as husband and wife. Do you think Robert will still keep on whoring if the chance is he might lose Lyanna? He went to War because of her. So I pretty much doubt that he would treat lynna as he treated Cersei.

Robert beat on Cersei every time she "spoke out of turn." Imagine Lyanna who was something of a firebrand from what we are told of her. You dont think Robert wouldnt beat on Lyanna once he realized her nature? Honestly?

[DaeneryStormBorn]

Robert beat on Cersei every time she "spoke out of turn." Imagine Lyanna who was something of a firebrand from what we are told of her. You dont think Robert wouldnt beat on Lyanna once he realized her nature? Honestly?

You are missing my point, what I am saying is it is different when you love someone, you have more tolerance towards them. Robert have no love for Cersei is why his attitude towards her is is more like whocares and no care.

[fiekie]

Her character is a bit hard to make out since it depends greatly on the circumstances regarding how she ended up in the ToJ.

She either

a.) Fell madly in love with Rheagar and decided she couldn't live without him.

b.) She decided Rheagar was a better option that Robert and ran off with him.

c.) She believed in the prophecy so she ran off with Rheagar.

d.) She was kidnapped and raped by Rheagar.

Until we know more I'm inclined to remain neutral.

[Cruella]

Oh, I do think Lyanna and Robert's marriage wouldn't be that different from his marriage with Cersei. She'd be disgusted by his attitude and show it, and argue with him. He'd be even more pissed off by it because in this case, he actually cares. It'd be the same but with less brother banging and more of Robert's drunken morning after "I am so sorry Lyanna I didn't mean to smack you in the face I swear it's the last time now, honestly". An urge to abuse is not something that is born out of indifference. Robert couldn't stand being humiliated and argued with, he lashed out cruelly. Lyanna would stand up to him for better reasons but with pretty much the same results, I am sure.

Lyanna - of course she was selfish, who doesn't selfishly want to spend their life with someone they can at least respect? Everyone wants to be happy. She didn't ask to be part of establishment, she never agreed to sign off her rights to happiness in exchange for good clothes. That's a weird argument for me. For example, Dany did willingly take on her part as Queen of Mereen, so in her case, I do expect her to make necessary sacrifices.

Lyanna was what, 15? 16? If Rhaegar apparently couldn't predict consequences of their actions, no wonder she couldn't. If he told her everything will work out, she was probably too tempted to belive it.

as for Arya - wait until she hits puberty... Honestly I wonder how much love of fandom she'd lose if she starts liking boys. It rarely goes well for other characters.

[Volantis]

love

that "love" lead the death of her, her lover, his father, wife and children, her brother, her father and countless others

[Sand Snake No. 9]

That clears that one up then.

Cersei always gets a pass for cheating because she wasn't happily married, why shouldn't Rhaegar? (The books, and the readers, are actually unrealistic in proposing or expecting fidelity in male royals -- IRL, not only did kings and princes have mistresses, but the families of those mistresses often looked to cash in on the relationship.)

The fact is that GRRM has only left us with a few comments about Rhaegar and Lyanna and most of them by people who are far from unbiased observers. Ned obviously loved Lyanna enough to bind himself for life to a promise (and we still don't really know what that was), the Reed kids obviously would be prejudiced in favor of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, etc. So with lots of unreliable narrators giving us very little information I don't know how Lyanna can be judged as a warrior woman or a lady (sure she cried when she heard Rhaegar sing, but she poured a cup of wine over the brother who mocked her for it), or as being good or bad for whatever the hell happened with Rhaegar.

Besides, it wasn't her alleged kidnapping that started the war, or even the death of Brandon and his father, it was Aerys demanding that Jon Arryn send him Robert and Ned. Jon Arryn called his banners and got the Riverlands involved by getting Ned married to Catelyn and by marrying Lysa himself, and then they went to war. Blame Aerys.

[Winter's Knight]

Wait, so an adult man-the crown prince in fact-seduces a fourteen year old and runs away with her and this is her fault?

I'm not sure y'all comprehend how feudal systems work-you don't refuse the royal family. Even if Lyaanna went willingly, it was a gross misuse of power from Rhaegar's end.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Cersei always gets a pass for cheating because she wasn't happily married, why shouldn't Rhaegar? (The books, and the readers, are actually unrealistic in proposing or expecting fidelity in male royals -- IRL, not only did kings and princes have mistresses, but the families of those mistresses often looked to cash in on the relationship.)

Cersei doesn't really get a pass from me, although in her defence she was in what could very well have been seen as an abusive marriage which Rhaegar by all accounts wasn't.

This isn't even so much simply about the notion of "cheating", just the flippant logic behind "yeah he cheated but he was unhappy and he had his reasons so don't be too harsh".

[Lyanna Stark]

You are missing my point, what I am saying is it is different when you love someone, you have more tolerance towards them. Robert have no love for Cersei is why his attitude towards her is is more like whocares and no care.

And you know this how? Lyanna herself said to Ned that love doesn't change a man, and I think Lyanna is right.

Robert's abuse of Cersei should never be excused tbh.

Cersei doesn't really get a pass from me, although in her defence she was in what could very well have been seen as an abusive marriage which Rhaegar by all accounts wasn't.

Understatement of the year. Cersei was abused by Robert. He beat her and raped her and I think that qualifies as abuse in most places.

[Djinn]

If it was a kidnapping, then she was a victim. If it was consensual, then she partly responsable for what happened next.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Understatement of the year. Cersei was abused by Robert. He beat her and raped her and I think that qualifies as abuse in most places.

Noted. I wasn't disputing the abusive nature of the marriage if it came across that way.

[Ygrain]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people expect Lyanna, or even Rhaegar, to be able to predict that the scandal of their eloping might sparkle a full-scale war.

If you look at the example from history that was probably an inspiration for the R+L, the kidnapping of Isabela of Angouleme by John Lackland, you will see that even though a war did follow, it had nothing to do with the kidnapping as such (Isabela became John's wife and the mother of his heir) but with sorting the issues of sovereignty and independence between England and France. No-one raised their banners to release her - neither her family nor her betrothed - instead, they complained with the king.

Note please that no-one is calling their banners after Lyanna was supposedly kidnapped, not even after Rickard and Brandon were murdered, but only after Aerys demands the heads of Ned and Robert. Similarly, no-one called for Robert's head when he deflowered that Florent girl, such things are dealt with through lands and titles to the offended side.

[Summer is Ending]

How could you suggest that Cersei and Lyanna would have the same outcome if Lyanna married Robert? Robert loves Lyanna, Do you think he would be the same if he had Married Lyanna? Do you think he would be calling cersei name or someone else name on their first day as husband and wife. Do you think Robert will still keep on whoring if the chance is he might lose Lyanna? He went to War because of her. So I pretty much doubt that he would treat lynna as he treated Cersei.

Yes Ned thinks to himself how Robert loved Lyanna even more than he did but as he eventually says to Robert when his illusions regarding his start to fall away Robert didn't know Lyanna. He loved an idea of her that was never real.

Lyanna certainly expected him to keep being a whore.

That's just what the singers say. It was go to war or lose his head.

You are missing my point, what I am saying is it is different when you love someone, you have more tolerance towards them. Robert have no love for Cersei is why his attitude towards her is is more like whocares and no care.

I'm sure you don't mean this but everything you're saying feels like it's slipping close to the idea that the mouthy bitch had it coming, if she had just been a better little lady like Lyanna surely would have been, Robert wouldn't have had to set her straight. Granted I have a very simplistic view of it. You're a woman beater or you're not. Robert didn't beat Cersei because she wasn't Lyanna, he beat her because he was weak where it mattered.

Robert was the ugly reality of peter pan. He refused to grow up and always chose the easy path. He could have taken that tragedy and grown up, become a man and dedicate his rule to making sure his 'true love' didn't die in vain, that something good could have come out of all of that tragedy. Instead he bankrupt the realm in his pity party and built the bonfire that would become the war of the five kings.

“They say so,” Ned agreed, “but not of Robert.” Other men might reconsider words spoken in drunken bravado, but Robert Baratheon would remember and, remembering, would never back down.

...

For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he would have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. “You hurt me,” she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. “It was not me, my lady,” he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. “It was the wine. I drink too much wine.”

Robert didn't feel shame for hitting Cersei, he felt shame for the disgust he likely saw in Ned's face.