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Family trees


25 replies to this topic

#1 Gonzalo

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:08 PM

This is to list family trees that require updates such as:

* Lannister tree ---> add Amerei Frey, married to Lancel

* Frey (Crakehall tree) ---> add Lancel Lannister, married to Amerei Frey

* modern Targaryen tree ----> add Hizdarh zo Loraq

#2 KCenturion

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 07:58 PM

House Estermont needs a rejig aswell.

Lord "Unnamed" Estermont is the elder brother of Eldon Estermont. Unnamed was Cassana's father and died near the beginning of 300AC. Eldon's sons are Aemon & Lomas.



#3 Nittanian

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 12:06 PM

There are also contradictions (canon book info vs. SSM info) regarding Shella Whent for House Whent.



#4 KCenturion

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 09:03 AM

Thanks Nittanian. I didn't realise that we would be able to change Family Trees!

I've updated the Estermonts as of the ADwD appendix.



#5 Seņor de la Tormenta

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 07:15 AM

Guys, dont rush with house Estermont. We have 4 books pointing the other way, so the last appendix could be a mistake.
Think it for a while, the grandson goes first than the brother, so the lordship (according with ADOD appendix) should ve gone to tommen or Stannis. Eldon being Lord Estermonts son and Cassanas brother, works better.

Edited by Seņor de la Tormenta, 07 December 2013 - 07:17 AM.


#6 KCenturion

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 10:09 AM

GRRM's quote "it's true until I say otherwise." Could it not be the case here that he forgot about a less prominent house until now and has changed it up? ADwD is the correction that was needed to solve the problem. I know the inheritance isn't correct

Technically, it is only 3 books as there are no Estermonts in AGoT. *nerd* 

Anyway, it can be changed back if we get a confirmation, I don't see why the latest appendix isn't the correct one even though it is a bit iffy with inheritance.



#7 Nittanian

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 11:56 AM

GRRM's quote "it's true until I say otherwise." Could it not be the case here that he forgot about a less prominent house until now and has changed it up? ADwD is the correction that was needed to solve the problem. I know the inheritance isn't correct

Technically, it is only 3 books as there are no Estermonts in AGoT. *nerd* 

Anyway, it can be changed back if we get a confirmation, I don't see why the latest appendix isn't the correct one even though it is a bit iffy with inheritance.


I'm leaning toward your interpretation as well. Geez, the Estermont relations are a headache.

Rhaenys_Targaryen previously wrote:
 

A mistake has been made in the books. There are appendixes that mention, for example, Ser Lomas as Eldons brother, yet there are also appendixes that mention him as his son. I think he is meant to be Cassanda's father, making both Aemon and Lomas his sons. This would mean the picture on the wiki is wrong, but the text is right. If this lord Eldon Estermont is 70, his sons would be about 40/50, and their sons about 20/30, the right age to start another generation by marrying and having children.


The simplest interpretation in my mind is that GRRM intends Eldon to have been Lord Estermont from the start of ASOIAF, and the appendix of ADWD is a retcon to take precedence over any contradictory info from earlier books. Davos and Sansa think of Lord Estermont as ancient in ACOK. While I associate ancient more with Maester Aemon and Old Nan, Eldon at age 70 is still older than most characters and has a knighted grandchild, Alyn.
 
In AFFC, Cersei thinks "By the time Cersei wed the king, Robert's lady mother was long dead, though both of her brothers had turned up for the wedding and stayed for half a year. Robert had later insisted on returning the courtesy with a visit to Estermont..." With the ADWD Appendix in mind, this interpretation could make Eldon's sons Aemon and Lomas the two brothers, who being younger would be more likely to have befriended Robert and stayed for half a year.

If Cassana is Eldon's daughter, then Eldon (born 230AL) must have been young when she was born and Cassana would also been young when she gave birth to Robert Baratheon (born ~263AL, making Eldon a 33-year-old grandfather).

Ran has the Citadel's Estermont entry state:
 

The Estermonts are one of the great families of the Stormlands, and are particularly prominent because Lord Estermont is maternal grandfather to the King Robert and lords Stannis and Renly. Lord Estermont is very old, and has many offspring, with at least two sons (Ser Eldon and Ser Lomas) and several grandsons and even a knighted great-grandson.

 
This version is closer to AFFC's appendix (which has Lomas as Eldon's brother) and discounts ADWD (which has Lomas as Eldon's son). It is in-line with the fan theories of Eldon succeeding ancient Lord Estermont (although GRRM never mentions Eldon succeeding anyone). This interpretation would seem to make the brothers who visited Robert be Eldon and Lomas, but they would have been much older than Robert and IMO less likely to have stayed for six months.

In the official smartphone app, the Estermont entry states: "the present Lord Estermont - Stannis's great-uncle - bends the knee to King's Landing after the Battle of the Blackwater. Prince Doran Martell dispatches Sylva Santagar, the heir to Spottswood, to wed the widowed Estermont..." The Greenstone entry states Sylva is sent "to wed the aged Lord Estermont". Sylva marries Eldon in AFFC, so the app seems to confirm that Eldon is the ancient Lord Estermont in ACOK. As Stannis's great-uncle, Eldon would be the uncle of Cassana. However, it contradicts ACOK ("ancient Lord Estermont, who was the king's grandfather on his mother's side") and ASOS ("Even Lord Estermont, my own mother's father, has bent his knee to Joffrey"). The newer publications (ADWD and app) may be retconning that, however.

#8 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 02:01 PM

Seeing as how several of the appendixes contain obvious mistakes (like Joffrey being 12 again in the appendix of Feast, while we most certainly saw him turn 13 two books before), I usually look little at the appendixes and mostly at the text in the books. Should the appendixes state something else than the books do.

 

Ran on the heraldry states it the following (the birth years are my own estimations):

 

Lord Estermont (ancient)

- his son, Eldon Estermont (born in 230 AC, married to Sylva Santagar)

- - Aemon (Aemon, as Eldon's son, will have been born about 25 years later, around 255 AC)

- - - Alyn (as Aemon's son, he will have been born around 280 AC)

- Lomas (if Lomas truly is Eldon's brother, he'll have been born around 230 AC as well)

- - Andrew (Andrew, his son, would most likely have been born around 255 AC, meaning he's close to 50 years old during asoiaf)

 

Robert was born around 263 AC. His mother would have been at least 15 years old at this time (maximally 20), placing Cassana's birth somewhere around 243 - 250 AC. That aligns with Aemon and Andrew, and not with Eldon and Lomas.

 

We know that Cassana had 2 brothers (not 3 or more, but specifically 2). We also know that Eldon in 300 AC is the Lord of Estermont.

Andrew as Stannis' squire at the age of 50 is not unthinkable, but highly unlikely.

 

Cassana seems to fit only as Eldon's daughter, which would mean that Cassana was born early to Eldon (born in 230 AC, with Robert born in 263 AC). The way I see it though, it's not impossible. Should Eldon have married when he was 16 (not a strange age to wed), he could have had his first child at the age of 17: Cassana, born in 247. Cassana would have married Steffon when she turned 15, in 262 AC, and gave birth to her firstborn son in 263 AC.

 

The only problem that this creates is Cassana's brother: we know there must be two, yet the books (text and appendixes) can only agree that Aemon is his son.

 

That's why I'm fairly certain that Lomas is Eldon's son as well. That solves two problems: Cassana has two brothers, and Lomas' son Andrew becomes closer to 20 in age, which would make more sense for being Stannis' squire.

 

That also aligns with the aDwD appendix.

 

The Estermonts are one difficult family, and I still do believe that a mistake has been made here.. I'm still hoping that an SSM might clear it up.. That or the World book, which will be "written" for Robert, so it might include his family tree as well. That might clear a few things.



#9 Nittanian

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 01:13 PM

Thanks for taking another look! Can you think of any changes that could/should be made to the current tree? I think we should mention the contradictory info within the Estermont articles, at least. I agree, I hope TWOIAF later this year will clarify the tree.



#10 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 05:59 PM

Thanks for taking another look! Can you think of any changes that could/should be made to the current tree? I think we should mention the contradictory info within the Estermont articles, at least. I agree, I hope TWOIAF later this year will clarify the tree.

 

I think we can chose from four options:

(1) either the tree on the wiki page stays, and a second one is edited in, with the text explicitly stating that due to contradicting information two versions exist.

(2) leave this tree on the wiki, and link on the wiki page to House Estermont/Theories (which will have to be created), where the second family tree is listed.

(3) edit the tree constructed above onto the wiki, and place the tree which is now on the page on the House Estermont/Theories page, which will be linked through on the main page

(4) cut both tree's from the main Estermont page, and place them both on the House Estermont/Theories, linking to them from the House Estermont page, stating in text that due to contradicting information, no family tree can be created with certainty

 

To play it safe, option 4 would be best, I think. But either one of the four would work.



#11 Nittanian

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 09:43 AM

To play it safe, option 4 would be best, I think. But either one of the four would work.

 

I agree with option 4. Hopefully TWOIAF will clarify the family later this year, but the information we currently have available is too contradictory for us to choose one version instead of another, IMO.



#12 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 01:30 PM

 

I agree with option 4. Hopefully TWOIAF will clarify the family later this year, but the information we currently have available is too contradictory for us to choose one version instead of another, IMO.

Alright, I'll try to create the correct templates.



#13 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 04:32 PM

Check this page out

http://awoiaf.wester...ermont/Theories

 

For solving the Estermont problem. For some reason, I wasn't able to add sources...

Also fixed the House Estermont page


Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen, 24 March 2014 - 04:42 PM.


#14 Nittanian

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 10:15 AM

Good work!



#15 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 11:28 AM

Thank you. For some reason, I was unable to put in sources. I constantly got an error, and then parts of my text disappeared, so I just stopped. I don't have any time today anymore to fix the sources, perhaps tomorrow..



#16 Nittanian

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 11:58 AM

Thank you. For some reason, I was unable to put in sources. I constantly got an error, and then parts of my text disappeared, so I just stopped. I don't have any time today anymore to fix the sources, perhaps tomorrow..

 

I added some links today, and the referencing system seems okay now. :)

 

Option 1 looks good, including the ACOK/ASOS info about Lord Estermont being Stannis's grandfather and the AFFC statement that Cassana has two brothers.

 

Regarding option 2, the smartphone app and the ADWD appendix state that Eldon is Stannis's great uncle. The second option currently has Lomas as Eldon's son, which matches the ADWD Appendix, but has Cassana as Eldon's daughter, which makes Eldon be Stannis's grandfather instead of granduncle. According to the ADWD version, Eldon should be Cassana's uncle in option 2, right? In that case, maybe Steffon Baratheon married the daughter of Lord Unnamed Estermont, the older brother of Eldon (since Steffon would have been more likely to marry the daughter of a lord instead of the daughter of a younger brother). At some point Eldon succeeded Unnamed Estermont, who died before TWOT5K (since the app indicates it is the same lord in ACOK and AFFC, Eldon).



#17 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 12:28 PM

Well, Lord Estermont has only been mentioned since ACOK, and "Lord Estermont"  has been called Stannis' grandfather.

 

I'll take a closer look tomorrow, but if you are suggesting that Eldon is Cassana's uncle, then where are Cassana's brothers? Cassana has two brothers, we know that.

 

Or are there three options?

 

Hmm.. Those Estermonts are troublemakers :P .. I'll search for all the quotes about the Estermonts tomorrow :)



#18 Nittanian

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 03:38 PM

Hmm.. Those Estermonts are troublemakers :P .. I'll search for all the quotes about the Estermonts tomorrow :)

 

Yep! In case you don't have the app, the newest update includes the following info:

 

From "Estermont":

The Estermonts are kin to the current Baratheons; Robert, Stannis, and Renly's mother was an Estermont. Lord Estermont is among those who support Renly, then Stannis in turn. Some of Stannis's Estermont kinsmen follow him to the north, but the present Lord Estermont—Stannis's great-uncle—bends the knee to King's Landing after the Battle of the Blackwater. Prince Doran Martell dispatches Sylva Santagar, the heir to Spottswood, to wed the widowed Estermont after her part in Princess Arianne's failed plot to crown Myrcella Baratheon is discovered.

 

From "Greenstone":

The Estermonts who rule it first support Renly, then Stannis Baratheon, whose mother was an Estermont, through the Battle of the Blackwater but bend the knee to King Joffrey afterward. Sylva Santagar is sent to their castle of Greenstone to wed the aged Lord Estermont after her part in Princess Arianne's plot is discovered.



#19 Seņor de la Tormenta

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 03:59 PM

Why "Lord Estermont" being the elder brother, Eldon the second and Lomas the third is not given as an option?

#20 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:37 PM

Why "Lord Estermont" being the elder brother, Eldon the second and Lomas the third is not given as an option?


If you believe that the text supports yet another family tree, describe it fully and completely here, and I'll add it in.