405 replies to this topic

[ivorydoom]

Sometimes I think Lyanna just has nothing to do with the equation at all and Jon is just Brandon's bastard with Ashara Dayne or even Neds.  *sigh*

Maybe Lyanna was just a political prisoner or even a turn cloak.  *shrug*

I really did like your explanation too though Corbon that was sound and well said.

[Apple Martini]

corbon, on 12 December 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

And I resent being told that the reason I don't trust it is because it disagrees with my theories. That was rude.

Considering some of what I've seen you say to people on here, including me, you're the last one to talk down to anyone else about what is or isn't rude.

[Ygrain]

ivorydoom, on 12 December 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

Sometimes I think Lyanna just has nothing to do with the equation at all and Jon is just Brandon's bastard with Ashara Dayne or even Neds.  *sigh*

Maybe Lyanna was just a political prisoner or even a turn cloak.  *shrug*

I really did like your explanation too though Corbon that was sound and well said.

With the Rebellion lasting about a year, Brandon killed before it and Jon born only at its end or afterwards, that would be a superlong pregnancy :-)

[WeStillKnowNothingJonSnow]

hmmm, i dunno...

[corbon]

Apple Martini, on 13 December 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

Considering some of what I've seen you say to people on here, including me, you're the last one to talk down to anyone else about what is or isn't rude.

Does that change anything?

I'm not perfect, I've made some mistakes.
However, occasionally being so impertinent as to actually disagree with you, or call you out on mistakes or inconsistencies has not, to the best of my recollection, been one of then.

You still remain a respected commentator though, and I agree with you far more often than not.

[dragontamer]

corbon, on 12 December 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Why are people still fixated on this?

Speaking only for myself I find it intriguing exploring all aspects and possibilities of a situation and anything that strikes me as paradox.

corbon, on 12 December 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

It's not (necessarily) an expression of affection. Choosing the Queen of Love and Beauty is not necessarily all about the big romantic gesture. It can be, but is not required or necessarily expected to be. Its simply honouring a woman for some reason. The original champions were going to honour their sister/niece if they won through, in honour of her birthday, not as a big romantic gesture. Selmy and other knights of the Kg have surely won many other tournaments, yet their honourings are not expected to be romantic gestures generally.
Rhaegar honoured Lyanna because of her exploits as KotLT. There was no other way for him to do so as the KotLT had been publicly declared the Kings enemy.
The smiles die from shock and surprise as much as anything. No one knew Rhaegar had any reason to honour anyone other than his wife, and being the dutiful sort and having some affection for her he probably would have honoured her normally as a matter of course (hence the shock). That he chose a young Stark girl he had probably never really met, who was betrothed to the Lord Baratheon, was potentially politically very significant given the closeness of Stark and Baratheon and whispers of Northern Alliance and Rhaegar potentially plotting (sort of) against the king.
There are so many, many layers here.
I imagine that the smiles died for many different reasons, almost as many as there were people there, and very few of them were for thoughts of dutiful and married Rhaegar falling in love with a northern teenager.

Note to that all the smiles dying is merely Ned's recollection - all could be just his party, just the people nearby, most of the crowd or every soul present, we can't tell. No more than we can tell why.

Giving the CoLaB to Lyanna is not some juvenile mooning. That fails every description we have of Rhaegar.
When we can reconcile the descriptions we have of Rhaegar with other actions we know about (KotLT and Rhaegar being sent to find him - not difficult to figure out where to look given the starting point of the three squires whose knigts were publicly told to teach them manners) and find that the crowning makes perfect sense as honouring the person who has displayed the greatest honour and bravery but must hide it, then there is no reason to suddenly invent juvenile reasons.
And it works on political levels too.

No doubt Rhaegar knew some tongues would wag. But so what if they did. He was married to Elia and on course for fulfilling the prophecy with three heads of the dragon. At that stage he had no need for Lyanna, no matter how brave and beautiful and wild and honourable she was. So let them talk. Elia and anyone who matters know the truth, and the rest will see in time that itmeant nothing.
Of course, then 9 months or so later Elia gives birth to his second head but is now declared unable to have the third. So then he needs a new wife for the third head, and then that brave, beautiful, wild and honourable Northern girl who seemed to like him pops into his head...

Crown of Love and Beauty. The name provides some information and to joke a bit about it the name imo refers more to Miss Universe’s crown than to a Medal of Honor.
Joke aside, honoring someone in public when absolutely no-one understands the meaning or purpose of the deed but on the contrary the deed itself can be misinterpreted, is at least foolish. And of course I agree that it contradicts all we know about Rhaegar and that’s the reason (as I have said already) that I can’t reconcile his actions with his character.

Rhaegar could confess his admiration to Lyanna in private as he most certainly must have already done if he indeed had previously discovered she was the KotLT. No need to send  any ambiguous signs. Not to mention that it shows complete disregard of Elia’s feelings. I doubt any woman would accept it regardless her feelings towards her husband, it’s just embarrassing, a public slight.

I will trust Eddard’s memory. Even if he doesn’t refer to all people present, he must have noted the important ones, those whose reaction mattered.

corbon, on 12 December 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

See above. There is no reason it should be described as an insult. It is not. It is merely honouring someone else, not dishonouring her.The two are not the same.
There is no evidence anywhere that I am aware of that shows Elia to feel insulted. Just readers jumping to conclusions and feeling insulted on her behalf.

The same way there is no evidence that shows she wasn’t insulted. The difference is that when you don’t know you’ve got to assume the more logical and expected answer.

Edited by dragontamer, 13 December 2012 - 04:46 AM.

[Proodle]

Old-Growth, on 12 December 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

Which yoga position do you think was his favorite?

I know absolutely bugger all about yoga, but, from looking online, probably the Utkatasana (chair pose). After all of those cuts from the Iron Throne I reckon he'd want to find a safe but potentially relaxing sitting position.

Sorry, guys. No more off-topic posts from me.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

ivorydoom, on 12 December 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

Sometimes I think Lyanna just has nothing to do with the equation at all and Jon is just Brandon's bastard with Ashara Dayne or even Neds.  *sigh*

Maybe Lyanna was just a political prisoner or even a turn cloak.  *shrug*

I really did like your explanation too though Corbon that was sound and well said.

I agree with Corbon that the giving of the CoLaB to Lyanna was because she was possibly the KotLT and he agreed with what she did.  In some respects I'd like the Knight to be Ned, slightly hinted at when the Reed children ask Bran 'Are you sure your father never told you this story?'.  I also find it unlikely that Lyanna, skilled horse rider that she was, would be that good at jousting. She'd have to get used to the wait of the armour, have the strength to hold the lance and have the knowledge and skill of placing the lance.  Still it's a possibility.

In terms of the chance of Jon being Brandon's son.  I doubt it as pointed out a SSM said Jon was born 1 month either side of the Sack of KL and he'd been dead too long.  I still hold out a possibility that he's Ned's with Ashara and that they met at some yet undefined point during Robert's Rebellion.  We know from another SSM that Ashara did not remain 'nailed to the floor at Starfall as some readers seem to think' and there are existing rumours of her being the mother, so it's definitely up there as a shot.

[Dragonfish]

Bear Island Bruiser, on 13 December 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

I agree with Corbon that the giving of the CoLaB to Lyanna was because she was possibly the KotLT and he agreed with what she did.  In some respects I'd like the Knight to be Ned, slightly hinted at when the Reed children ask Bran 'Are you sure your father never told you this story?'.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree was short of stature, which wouldn't have applied to Ned, who was eighteen at the time. The hint that you highlight here could just as easily imply that the KotLT was a member of Ned's family.

Quote

I also find it unlikely that Lyanna, skilled horse rider that she was, would be that good at jousting.

It has been established by two separate characters that jousting is mostly about horsemanship. The rest she could've learned by riding at rings, which, according to the ASoIaF app, she actually did do. So I find it hardly unlikely that she'd would be a skilled jouster.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Dragonfish, on 13 December 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

The Knight of the Laughing Tree was short of stature, which wouldn't have applied to Ned, who was eighteen at the time. The hint that you highlight here could just as easily imply that the KotLT was a member of Ned's family.

Well Ned is referenced as not being a particularly tall man, or at least as not tall as his brother, but conceeded.  I thought he was younger than 18 at the time that would have explained the shorter height, though I completely admit I don't really know on that one.

Dragonfish, on 13 December 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

It has been established by two separate characters that jousting is mostly about horsemanship. The rest she could've learned by riding at rings, which, according to the ASoIaF app, she actually did do. So I find it hardly unlikely that she'd would be a skilled jouster.

She still would be unlikely to be used to the weight of the armour.  In general I concede that Lyanna is a definite contender for KotLT. Stature fits, sounds exactly like something her character would do and we know full well the opportunity was there.  Equally it's definitely not beyond her abilities to do it.  I'll chuck in a shout for Benjen as being a possibility as well and finish off with saying my main reason for touting Ned out is purely because I want it to be him.  Just be nice to see him do something a little reckless (well unless you count getting Ashara pregnant with Jon )

[LadyMary]

dragontamer, on 13 December 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

Speaking only for myself I find it intriguing exploring all aspects and possibilities of a situation and anything that strikes me as paradox.



Crown of Love and Beauty. The name provides some information and to joke a bit about it the name imo refers more to Miss Universe’s crown than to a Medal of Honor.
Joke aside, honoring someone in public when absolutely no-one understands the meaning or purpose of the deed but on the contrary the deed itself can be misinterpreted, is at least foolish. And of course I agree that it contradicts all we know about Rhaegar and that’s the reason (as I have said already) that I can’t reconcile his actions with his character.

Rhaegar could confess his admiration to Lyanna in private as he most certainly must have already done if he indeed had previously discovered she was the KotLT. No need to send  any ambiguous signs. Not to mention that it shows complete disregard of Elia’s feelings. I doubt any woman would accept it regardless her feelings towards her husband, it’s just embarrassing, a public slight.

I will trust Eddard’s memory. Even if he doesn’t refer to all people present, he must have noted the important ones, those whose reaction mattered.



The same way there is no evidence that shows she wasn’t insulted. The difference is that when you don’t know you’ve got to assume the more logical and expected answer.

The general impression given in the books from the recounting of events at Harrenhal, is that Rhaegar's gesture - crowing Lyanna as QoLaB, was something of a scandal, because he crowned a woman who was not his own wife. Hence, the smiles died... grist for the gossip mill, but probably forgotten after a while if he hadn't gone and abducted Lyanna Stark about a year later.  Whether or not Lyanna was also the KofLT, I think Rhaegar fell in love with her at Harrenhal and crowned her because he wanted her to know it.

Nobody knows how Elia felt about it, but we do have evidence than the Martells were not happy with Rhaegar's treatment of Elia. Since there's no evidence that Rhaegar was like his father in the way he dealt with his wife (animosity, brutality and rape), it's reasonable to assume that the slight was Rhaegar's infatuation with and abduction of Lyanna Stark which meant Rhaegar was being unfaithful to Elia.

I'll go on record as I have before and say that Rhaegar wasn't evil nor a sadist like his father. He was mostly admired and probably one of the few Targaryens that could be reasoned with - hence, the alleged conspiracy to depose Aerys in Rhaegar's favor. He was far from the perfect paragon of Kingly goodness that some remember in retrospect. However, he was human and he had flaws. Personally, I think he may have suffered from bipolar disorder based on his actions and we know he was obsessed with certain prophesies.

Taking Lyanna was a HUGE scandal and an insult not just to Rhaegar's wife, but an affront to Houses Stark and Baratheon... and now it seems he did so with accomplices who were members of the Kings Guard which means at least they were loyal to him (assuming Aerys wasn't a co-conspirator in the abduction in the first place).

All that said, none of that precludes the possibility that Rhaegar was truly in love with Lyanna, or that she conspired in the "abduction" because she loved him back and wanted a way out of a marriage to Robert, whom she know would never be faithful to her. By being "abducted" Lyanna is absolved from blame and maybe Rhaegar wanted to spare her honor by being the bad guy in the conspiracy.

Edited by LadyMary, 13 December 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[MtnLion]

Bear Island Bruiser, on 13 December 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

In terms of the chance of Jon being Brandon's son.  I doubt it as pointed out a SSM said Jon was born 1 month either side of the Sack of KL and he'd been dead too long.  

The actual time frame given is at the time of the sack to a month later.  Jon is 8-9 months older than Daenerys who was conceived just beofre the sack.

Quote

I still hold out a possibility that he's Ned's with Ashara and that they met at some yet undefined point during Robert's Rebellion.  We know from another SSM that Ashara did not remain 'nailed to the floor at Starfall as some readers seem to think' and there are existing rumours of her being the mother, so it's definitely up there as a shot.

Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal.  Harrenhal was 21 months before the sack of King's Landing.  Ashara is a very busy girl.  She gets a three month break between pregnancies if she is to be Jon Snow's mother, not impossible, but I find it very unlikely.

[MtnLion]

Winds of Winter blow cold, on 12 December 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

Could you maybe post that on a bunch of other threads? I would but I can't figure how to make links on this new computer!

Well, you can quote my post and copy the result to a text file.  Then whenever you want to post a link to it copy the contents of the text file into the edit field and post it.  

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

MtnLion, on 13 December 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

Well, you can quote my post and copy the result to a text file.  Then whenever you want to post a link to it copy the contents of the text file into the edit field and post it.  

Figured that out last night! Thanks! Let's see...they can play the app card all they want...but when we trump it with the makers own admission that it contains OMISSIONS, MISTAKES, & EASILY MISINTERPRETED wording...it's just "sour grapes"?! (Even though we don't dismiss it out of hand.) Interesting. **cough...hypocrisy..cough**

Edited by Winds of Winter blow cold, 13 December 2012 - 01:48 PM.

[J. Stargaryen]

Winds of Winter blow cold, on 13 December 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Figured that out last night! Thanks! Let's see...they can play the app card all they want...but when we trump it with the makers own admission that it contains OMISSIONS, MISTAKES, & EASILY MISINTERPRETED wording...it's just "sour grapes"?! (Even though we don't dismiss it out of hand.) Interesting. **cough...hypocrisy..cough**

How is that trumping it? Hell, the books could very well contain omissions, mistakes, and easily misinterpreted wording.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

J. Stargaryen, on 13 December 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

How is that trumping it? Hell, the books could very well contain omissions, mistakes, and easily misinterpreted wording.

Because they present it as the be all & end all, & it isn't. All I want is more confirmation, but they won't let go of the belief that it is infallible, & then they turn around & say "You're just upset that it craps on your theory" which isn't true.

[J. Stargaryen]

Winds of Winter blow cold, on 13 December 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

Because they present it as the be all & end all, & it isn't. All I want is more confirmation, but they won't let go of the belief that it is infallible, & then they turn around & say "You're just upset that it craps on your theory" which isn't true.

It's pretty close to be all and end all as it's an official work. For example, will you consider the World of Ice and Fire book 'be all and end all'? Because this app is meant to supplement that book, from what I understand.

Not trying to pick sides here, but I think you're dismissing the value of the app for personal reasons. It's official. The info came from GRRM himself. The chance that something might have been lost in translation does not invalidate every new piece of information contained in the app.

As for AM and BB!, those two put a lot of effort into informing the users on this forum of the new info presented in the app, only to have the accuracy or officialness of the app questioned a bunch of times for the reasons stated. If you feel like you're being unfairly lumped in with others then I understand your objection, but I wouldn't let that sour you on the app, or those who took the time to relay all of this new info to the rest of us.

Edited by J. Stargaryen, 13 December 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[MtnLion]

Winds of Winter blow cold, on 13 December 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Figured that out last night! Thanks! Let's see...they can play the app card all they want...but when we trump it with the makers own admission that it contains OMISSIONS, MISTAKES, & EASILY MISINTERPRETED wording...it's just "sour grapes"?! (Even though we don't dismiss it out of hand.) Interesting. **cough...hypocrisy..cough**

J. Stargaryen, on 13 December 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

How is that trumping it? Hell, the books could very well contain omissions, mistakes, and easily misinterpreted wording.

I think of it the other way around.  There are new things that are added, with GRRM's suggestion, like Lyanna tilting rings.  There are old secrets that may not be revealed, because they are scheduled to be revealed in later titles.  That really means that Elio and Linda drew their knowledge together (including some possible assumptions) and that while most of the real meat was edited by GRRM, it may not have been.  The fun part will be dissecting the little clues and learning what they could mean in the future, and in some cases we can rest some discussions.  I just cannot assume that the app is canon until it has been thoroughly vetted by GRRM, which may be months or years away.  There are errors in the books, too, and GRRM views them with a wink and a nod to the unreliable narrator.

[J. Stargaryen]

MtnLion, on 13 December 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

I think of it the other way around.  There are new things that are added, with GRRM's suggestion, like Lyanna tilting rings.  There are old secrets that may not be revealed, because they are scheduled to be revealed in later titles.  That really means that Elio and Linda drew their knowledge together (including some possible assumptions) and that while most of the real meat was edited by GRRM, it may not have been.  The fun part will be dissecting the little clues and learning what they could mean in the future, and in some cases we can rest some discussions.  I just cannot assume that the app is canon until it has been thoroughly vetted by GRRM, which may be months or years away.  There are errors in the books, too, and GRRM views them with a wink and a nod to the unreliable narrator.

I usually find myself nodding in agreement with your posts. This time, however, we are standing on opposite shores. I don't think I have much else to add here, other than a slight rewording of something I said in my last post:

Quote

The chance that something might have been lost in translation does not invalidate call into question every new piece of information contained in the app.

[Kosh Naranek]

I think the app is good fun and has helped confirm some things.  Even if we draw the wrong conclusion from a word here or there, does it really matter?  We are all going to carry on discussing at any rate.

I don't have any of the necessary gadgets, and I appreciate everyone's posts that detail content.  I lurk and read a lot more than I post.  I enjoy seeing everyone's POV and theories.

I had to Google rings and jousting to understand how her riding rings supports Lyanna as Laughing Tree.  When I first read the story, I was firmly convinced that Howland avenged himself.  I took it as a story of how the Reeds' father meet the Starks.  It was not until I came to the boards that I even entertained the notion that it was Lyanna.

Question:  Were Rhaegar's two children born before the tourney, or was Aegon born after?  I get confused by the timeline.
Rhaenys born.
Harranhall
Abduction
Brandon and Rickard are dead.
Rhaenys and Aegon die at ~3 and 1 respectively?
Dany born 8-9 months after sack.

Thanks!