405 replies to this topic

[Twinslayer]

J. Stargaryen, on 14 December 2012 - 01:36 AM, said:

Right, at most Dany is one half of the Ice and Fire metaphor. If it's only one of them, it's definitely Jon.

I guess I almost see the metaphors building up to a point - a pyramid for example. At the top would be Jon alone. The next 'level' down would be Jon and Dany. Below that would be the 'other stuff' I&F symbolizes. Hopefully it's okay that I used a metaphor to describe a metaphor.

J. Stargaryen, this strikes me as a useful way of looking at it.  

Aside from the HoTU vision, to the best of my recollection, the only other place "ice and fire" are referenced together is in the oath Meera and Jojen swear to Bran.  Meera says something to the effect that it has been thousands of years since her people swore an oath to the King in the North and that she and Jojen are there to say "the words" again.   They then make an oath that Bran has never heard before and which invokes "ice and fire."  I don't know what to make of this.  Perhaps that the combination of ice and fire was also important to the last struggle against the Others?

Edited by Twinslayer, 14 December 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[MtnLion]

Bear Island Bruiser, on 14 December 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

Sorry but the actual quote I've seen from the GRRM email is
'Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.'

Which gives wiggle room at least.

The next part is why do you assume Ashara was pregnant after HH? From what I recall of what Barristan said was that she was pregnant at some point and miscarried....he thinks.

"Stillbirth" is a full term pregnancy, not a miscarriage.  That is one of the reasons I suspect that we will find that Elia gave birth to a stillborn baby girl . . .

Jon is 8-9 months older than Daenerys, he is 1-2 months younger than Robb, he is about a year younger than Aegon.  Starting to add up?  Aegon was conceived at about the time of Harrenhal.  So, let's fix time at Harrenhal.  Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal.  There was at least one year of winter following Harrenhal.  There won't be any wars or a lot of travelling going on.  Ashara is not going to be going to Starfall to have her baby if the Prince's Pass is snowed in.  (Rhaenys was 2-3 years old at the end.  She had to be at least 6 months old at Harrenhal.  Aegon was a year old at the end, 21 months after Harrenhal.  Makes Rhaenys at least 27 months old at the end.  So timing is very tight. wiggle room:  24 (+/- 3) months after Harrenhal King's Landing is sacked.)  The rebellion lasted more than 9 months, Robb was a newborn when Catelyn takes him to Winterfell.  After Lyanna was abducted Brandon was hot-headed and got into trouble.  Then Rickard had to travel from Winterfell to be Brandon's champion (why couldn't Brandon champion himself?  He was the swordsman in camp Stark.)  Rhaegar abducts Lyanna some time after Aegon is born.  They likely had time for courtship and marriage before Jon was conceived.  It keeps coming back to Harrenhal plus 21 months is the sack of King's Landing, and Jon is born within a month after.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Bear Island Bruiser, on 14 December 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

I don't think Robert would have wanted him dead as I don't think Robert actually wanted Rhaegars other children to be killed.  Possibly relieved by it, it removed the decision of what to do with them, but it was the Lannisters who took the decision to kill the kids.

What? Robert wanted Dany dead after 16 years of living on the run. The only reason Robert did not have V & D killed before that was Jon Arryn always talked him out of it. If he knew about Jon, even as a bastard, he would likely want him dead. As an heir, no way Robert would have let him live, even with all the "love" he had for Ned.

@Mtn lion, ok thanks. Jon age is the only thing that I would question¹, but I had not seen it work out that way before. IMO Lyanna was "missing" for at least 13 months before Jon was born. I do agree that there was a period of courtship even after travel time, before Jon was made.

1. Jon's age is debatable in the fact that his nameday might have been changed (either way) by Ned to throw off the timeline.

[MtnLion]

Black Wolf Smith, on 14 December 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

@Mtn lion, ok thanks. Jon age is the only thing that I would question¹, but I had not seen it work out that way before. IMO Lyanna was "missing" for at least 13 months before Jon was born. I do agree that there was a period of courtship even after travel time, before Jon was made.

1. Jon's age is debatable in the fact that his nameday might have been changed (either way) by Ned to throw off the timeline.

Since nameday refers to when one is named, and GRRM says he supposes that Ned named him, Ned would know the day, and I can't conceive of a reason for Ned to worry about the date.  

[J. Stargaryen]

Twinslayer, on 14 December 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

J. Stargaryen, this strikes me as a useful way of looking at it.  

Aside from the HoTU vision, to the best of my recollection, the only other place "ice and fire" are referenced together is in the oath Meera and Jojen swear to Bran.  Meera says something to the effect that it has been thousands of years since her people swore an oath to the King in the North and that she and Jojen are there to say "the words" again.   They then make an oath that Bran has never heard before and which invokes "ice and fire."  I don't know what to make of this.  Perhaps that the combination of ice and fire was also important to the last struggle against the Others?

Why thank you.

Bran could very well have a place in this triangle. The bottom two points represented by Ice and Fire, the top point a combination of both. In other words, Jon Snow. Bran would fit as the representative of Ice, with Dany as fire. This could be hypothesized as the THotD, too. If it ends up being three people, that is. And, hey, it's probably topped off by PtwP! There, we've just solved two prophecies with one triangle.

[MtnLion]

I like cracked pottery, at least this one.  

ETA:  I have always thought about the Children of the Forest and their singers.  There may be one or two that sing the song of Ice and/or Fire.

Edited by MtnLion, 14 December 2012 - 03:17 PM.