54 replies to this topic

[Flaming Heart]

Well,After Reading a feast of crows,I thought it was odd that Petyr never mentions anything about avenging cat.He obviously was deeply in love with her and I really expected that Petyr would device a plan to utterly destroy all who were Involved in the Red Wedding.I know he is calm and composed and wouldn't rush into doing anything he might resent later,But its the love of her life,the woman he was so devoted to that he challenged Brandon Stark for her hand.

Although nothing has been mentioned yet,But I do expect Petyr have some plan for revenge,something he reveals in later books.

[Bluesnow]

Little Finger's feeling towards Cat during childhood were obviously puppy love... but as an adult it was never as clear. Personally I think he was warped into someone thats far too self interested to feel the need to avenge her... I mean... he went around telling king's landing that he took her maiden hood, so he clearly doesn't care for her honor anymore at least. He also lied to her about the knife which caused alot of problems for her in the long run.

I think vengeance might be part of his motivation... but maybe not vengeance for Cat, but himself. He never got to have what he wanted because of his low birth. The love of his life was taken from him by the Starks because of his birth, but his pride was probably also hurt pretty badly when when he got half beaten to death by Brandon. Not to mention the only stations he ever got were through manipulating Lysa (although he proved his skill later). He even gets denied Sansa as a bride because of his low birth (which I totally missed my first read through). Yes, he says the only person he ever loved was Catlyn... but I just don't know.

My personal opinion is he just wants to get revenge on everyone and destroy many of the big houses on his road to his rise in power. Its my personal theory that he manipulated much of what he did just to crush house Stark... perhaps Cat included in that.

[Lady Owl]

Bluesnow I totally agree. Petyr's love for Cat, while probably real when he was young had, I think, faded to something more like a symbol of how his low birth had prevented him getting what he wanted.

[Dreadwolf]

I agree with Bluesnow nd Lady_Owl.

His boyish feelings could have been nice...But this is not granted I personally do not think so. If one changes for bad after love… that would have been a strange love.  I still cannot accept that he was so deep in love with Cat that quickly after his infamous performance with Brandon and Catelyn’s obvious rejection (*)   he went seeking condolence with her sister. Basically taking the advantages of Lysa’s infatuation on her own to Little Petyr.

The common spread explanation is that LF never accepted the simple truth that Catlyn had and had never had any sexual (genuine love)attraction  to him… And that being drunk Petyr bedded Lisa believing she is Cat. While this is technically possible, the difference between the two girls had ever been dramatically clear. Even Jaime was able to notice it in his innocent youth,  during his visit at River Run while being blindly in love with his twin sister, and mainly interested by the legendary swordsman’s stories and an imposing figure of Brynden Tully. So I cannot believe LF was so drunk not to make the difference but still able to impregnate the next sister  willing to give herself to him. The simple explanation that in a moment of intoxication everything turned to the flow of red hair before his very eyes does not work for me.  Even if he had whispered Catelyn’s name  in Lysa’s face at the supreme moment – I would be most inclined to give him an early credit for being vile, sadistic and revengeful. And while he had no reason for revenge over Lysa – for him she was and ever remained nothing but a pawn and toy. Plus she was still a Tully. And he hated them all. Humiliated in front of the girl he loved, ruled out by Catelyn.


All that being said I think WRT Catlyn Tully Stark - LF had already had his vengeance. In other words and in his understanding -  his puny manhood triumphed over her arrogant bitchness.  He offered her everything once (perhaps twice, second time before Eddard took her by proxy of his elder, perished brother) and she said no. Well…. One does not simply say no to LF! QED = Quod Erat Demonstrandum. And Petyr dedicated the rest of his life to that … Stupid and meaningless as it was. (just my pov of course)


(*)had she been ready to follow him till the end of the world she would have eloped Petyr similar way Lyana did Rhaegar. People and their mottoes /family, duty honor/ were different yes. But I am sure Lysa would have gone with Petyr if he had asked it from her… So mottoes or not - the feelings generally prevail in such crusial cases. Everyone can be honorable when there is nothing at the stake as the wise Maester Aemon said Jon once…

Edited by Dreadwolf, 29 November 2012 - 05:06 AM.

[blackwing]

I also agree that LF would not really avenge cat for love. But since his ambition is for the throne, he just might do it if it would work out to his advantage. For example, crushing the Frey's claiming he did it b/c of his love for Cat might open the doors of some northern lords and the riverlords for him. Of course there is still Stannis to consider, but it definitely would help him in forming a bigger block of power arround the Vale (which of course he must consolidate first of all).

[Bluesnow]

Dreadwolf, on 29 November 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

I agree with Bluesnow nd Lady_Owl.

His boyish feelings could have been nice...But this is not granted I personally do not think so. If one changes for bad after love… that would have been a strange love.  I still cannot accept that he was so deep in love with Cat that quickly after his infamous performance with Brandon and Catelyn’s obvious rejection (*)   he went seeking condolence with her sister. Basically taking the advantages of Lysa’s infatuation on her own to Little Petyr.

This was also a big thing I had thought of...
Rather than "condolences" it makes me wonder if it was some sort of revenge in a way... I mean... he already THOUGHT he took Cat's maidenhood... it would be a smack in the face of House Tully him taking away the Maidenhoods of both the sisters... plus he goes around claiming he did anyways like he has some pride in it.

blackwing, on 29 November 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

For example, crushing the Frey's claiming he did it b/c of his love for Cat might open the doors of some northern lords and the riverlords for him. Of course there is still Stannis to consider, but it definitely would help him in forming a bigger block of power arround the Vale (which of course he must consolidate first of all).

I don't know about the North really caring too much...  I mean... yeah she's Eddard's wife, but she wasn't really of the north. Riverlords maybe... but they're so broken right now I'm unsure if that would be of much help for him xD

Plus... he was supposed to love Lysa... the vale might take offense if he were to on a crusade for the other Tully girl... although they really didn't have much love for Lysa either.

[booknerd2]

If he finds out or sees what the hell happened to his Cat (Uncat) I can still see him taking it as a personal offense somehow, and still be dulsional enough to be angry at the Freys for messing with his "girl." He may not go out of his way outwardly for revenge, but I can see Mr. Slick throwing a wrench in the Freys path.

[blackwing]

Bluesnow, on 29 November 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

I don't know about the North really caring too much...  I mean... yeah she's Eddard's wife, but she wasn't really of the north. Riverlords maybe... but they're so broken right now I'm unsure if that would be of much help for him xD

Plus... he was supposed to love Lysa... the vale might take offense if he were to on a crusade for the other Tully girl... although they really didn't have much love for Lysa either.

Well, a lot of northerners died at the red wedding as well. One of those was called the king in the north, other's where nobles. The north remembers...

[NitzanLeo]

I totally disagree with most of the people here. I can't believe Petyr doesn't still love Catelyn, even after all those years. Before Lysa's death, Petyr tells her hat he only ever loved one woman, and that woman was Cat. The whole reason why Petyr is helping Sansa out is because how alike she is to Catelyn, and because she's her daughter. Well, the whole reason other than his own ambitions. That is why I believe Petyr will avenge Cat somehow.

[Knight errant]

NitzanLeo, on 01 December 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

I totally disagree with most of the people here. I can't believe Petyr doesn't still love Catelyn, even after all those years. Before Lysa's death, Petyr tells her hat he only ever loved one woman, and that woman was Cat. The whole reason why Petyr is helping Sansa out is because how alike she is to Catelyn, and because she's her daughter. Well, the whole reason other than his own ambitions. That is why I believe Petyr will avenge Cat somehow.

I subscribe to the ideal that he used his love for her as an explanation to his moral side as a just reason etc. "I have to do this evil thing so I can one day have catelyn" he kept telling himself that - early on  at least - and it became perverted into what it is now, his blind ambition because he obviously doesn't lover her anymore.

[Tini]

I don't think LIttlefinger will avenge Catelyn. Whatever he felt for her, she turned her back on him and married Ned Stark. She grew to love her husband, and forgot about him. If anything, what happened to her was vengeance for his spurned feelings.  No need to avenger her.

Didn't he ask Cersei for Sansa even before Catelyn died? Sansa replaced Catelyn even before Catelyn died at the Red Wedding.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

I would like to; while reading I thought many times about that... but in the end I realized that he's just a selfish bastard...

[Dreadwolf]

NitzanLeo, on 01 December 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

... Before Lysa's death, Petyr tells her hat he only ever loved one woman, and that woman was Cat. ...

Whatever he says, whatever he does and whatever he tells you, remember this: George R. R. Martin Petyr Baelish can never be trusted.

[Flaming Heart]

Well,I don't think anybody can be sure about what littlefinger really wants.We have never read his POV so we don't know exactly what he is.The thing about GRRM's characters is that they are immensely complex.He has often mentioned in his interviews that none of his characters is either purely evil or purely good.Right Now,We all think that petyr is this clever greedy dude,but there might be more to him than meets the eye.I personally think his love for cat was real and the whole dagger deception was merely meant to get Ned stark killed but it went completely out of hand led to cat's death.Now that he has Riverlands and the Veil under his control,I do think he will plot to avenge cat(at least I hope so)

[Budj]

I think LF felt betrayed by Cat - Sansa is his Cat 2.0 (gross).

[Lion of Judah]

I doubt that he does, his actions never put Cat's well being into consideration when she was alive. Why would he consider he when she is dead?

[mediterraneo]

Littlefinger is the ultimate cause of Catelyn's fall, and reaped the fruits of it.
He suduced and killed her sister, took benefit of her brother's and her lineage's fall to be elevated to Lord of the Riverlands, took her daughter captive after framing her for a kingslaying he participated in, and he had to do with a knife, used to try to kill her son, on which he blatantly lied to her, with the purpose of pushing her, and her northern family, to a war they couldn't win. And they couldn't win that war because he manipulated Lysa against Cat, forbidding her to let the knights of the Vale to help Robb. Possibly LF is also responsible of putting strange "masculinity" ideas in Jeoffrey's mind (Varys would have been less credible in that) when he was considering the "piety of the women" about Ned's execution.
The only way Littlefinger has to "avenge" Catelyn Tully would be suicide.
That if he was in the businness of avenging indefense women and not of happily exploiting them, and murdering them when they are not anymore profitable.
Cheers!

EDIT: some of the typos

Edited by mediterraneo, 04 December 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[Mumatil]

So just wondering, does Baelish have a small penis?

I mean I think thats the more important issue here, am I right?

Little Finger, urge to own everything to compensate.

[NitzanLeo]

Dreadwolf, on 02 December 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

Whatever he says, whatever he does and whatever he tells you, remember this: George R. R. Martin Petyr Baelish can never be trusted.

Eh. I don't totally believe that. You can trust him as long as you know he really needs you for whatever he's going for, and if you predict his moves.

Mumatil, on 03 December 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

So just wondering, does Baelish have a small penis?

I mean I think thats the more important issue here, am I right?

Little Finger, urge to own everything to compensate.

Just for the hell of it, I'm going to assume this isn't a joke. He's from the smallest of the Fingers in the Vale of Arryn. [/gullible]

[LordAlexOfTheWolds]

I think that Littlefinger has played the game just to prove that he would be good enough for Catelyn, to prove them wrong so to speak. And, I'm sure he will want to destroy everyone who wronged him in his quest for Catelyn.
I don't think he will try to avenge her, I think he'll just keep playing the game...