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Daggers in the Dark: What Did Melisandre Really See?


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I thought the Children's caves rather than Hardome on its own as a possibility for that vision too. Unless "wooden wall" is figurative for a wall of trees, or the pile of shipwrecks that are said to be there, I don't think there's wooden walls there that we know of. Hardhome was burned badly to the ground in that "mini-doom" that happened, so I don't think wooden walls could have survived that.

I was thinking that in that one passage (starting with the snowflake/ashes end ending with skulls) she's seeing two different locations. The first being Stannis near WF and the other near the Children's caves, but I haven't really thought it through, I must admit, just occurred to me while reading the passage, out of context so it's a bit forced. I'm being Mel :laugh:

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I was thinking that in that one passage (starting with the snowflake/ashes end ending with skulls) she's seeing two different locations. The first being Stannis near WF and the other near the Children's caves, but I haven't really thought it through, I must admit, just occurred to me while reading the passage, out of context so it's a bit forced. I'm being Mel :laugh:

Oh- no, I don't think you are being forced with it; there was another thread a while back where I wondered a similar possibility-- 2 locations in the same vision (arrows and wooden wall versus caves with skulls and flames going out). Or conversely, that if the first part of the image is in fact Hardhome, maybe it's telling us that this is another CotF cave entrance. Which could be useful knowledge if "someone" needs to find Bran.

This does not work, but when I think of skulls post DwD, I think of the Golden Company. Not sure what that gets me, only I think this connection to skulls isn't usually linked from what I noticed, but it doesn't really have much to do with this particular vision.

On a more general note, I would actually like to see Mel and Moqorro's visions side by side.

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I took it more literal in truth. I believe it to be in reference to the assassination attempt, I don't have the text here but I believe Mel also told him to keep his wolf close because of her vision. That to me is evidence that her vision was of a more immediate threat.

That is still just evidence of Mel's interpretation

.

As for the crypts of Winterfell revealing something to Jon; I have heard this before, but I'm not sold on it just yet. Other than a letter of some sort, what physical relic can possibly reveal Jon's parentage?

Maybe he'll encounter a 'ghost' of some sort. This theory relies on the saying, "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell," and the idea that the swords in the crypts are meant to keep the souls at rest. Then there's the idea that the Starks were once into blood magic due to Bran's visions through the weirwood.

Does she actually see Skulls and Daggers surrounding him at the same time? Or are they two seperate visions? I got the impression that they are separate. If so, then I believe her vision of him surrounded by daggers does represent his assassination. She got that part right imo.

I got the impression that they were together.

She explicitly sees Jon in the vision with the daggers though doesn't she? As the OP states, her visions all seem to be of actual events that have yet to happen. Contrast this with the Ghost of High Hearts highly symbolic visions/dreams.

Has Mel had any visions that proved to be symbolic like that? I can't think of any.

I don't think she explicitly see's Jon, the same way she didn't explicitly see Arya. I always felt that she saw Jon and then she saw the daggers scene and interpreted it to also be Jon.

Are the snowflakes mixing with ashes Stannis' pyres of his own men in the snows? Are the caves with the skulls the Children's caves? :dunno:

I always thought the snowflakes in the vision were mixing with the actual fire Mel was using to see the visions.

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I actually thought that her "daggers in the dark" may have shown something that was going on at Kings Landing...aka the death of Pycelle and Kevan at the hands of Varys.

"They were all around him, half a dozen of them, white faced children with dark eyes, boys and girls together.

And in their hands, the daggers."

The representation of the children sounds skull like (pale faces and dark eyes, etc) plus the daggers are clearly pointed out, and we know that the room was dark except for the moon

:agree: Kevan's death could mean something for Stannis, so maybe that is why she saw the vision. Kevan also thought of how cold it was in the room and how cold he became as he died.

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You know what always nugged me (except for Mel's interpretations being usually wrong)? That I don't think it was that dark when the Jon thing happened. On a thread a few months ago I asked this, and someone pointed out it really was evening, but weren't there torches and stuff? I mean, I got the impressions that everyone was pretty much seing everything.

Daggers in the dark - I imagine something like Bran's failed assassination attempt - some sneaky assassin going there at night to kill him in his sleep. I mean, Jon's assassination seemed too "public" and visible to be qualified as daggers in the dark.

Then you get Pycelle and Kevan's deaths by the little birds - yes, it fits perfectly as someone pointed out, but she has only seen events relevant to the North, Jon and Stannis till now.

So my take on the whole thing is - Mel really saw daggers in the dark, but she (and us through her) are being red-herringed: once by Jon's death, and only us, as readers, are being red herringed by Kevan and Pycelle's death, and the real event she saw is yet to happen.

Whether Malisandre "forced" Jon's assasination to fulfill the prophecy, there was no prophecy and she was plain warning him (she orcestrated it), or she had no idea of the plot agains him is up to question though.

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My first reaction to the skulls reference was that it had something to do with the COTF cave, and perhaps that colours the rest of the vision relating to Jon. Don't have my book with me, but would be interesting to compare the wording of this vision and the vision she has of Bloodraven/Bran and see if there are any parallels/similarities....

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Just to clarify, it is actually night when Jon is stabbed:

“There is still much to decide. Spread the word. I want all the leading men in the Shieldhall when the evening watch begins. Tormund should be back by then. Where can I find Toregg?”

Jon's talking to Leathers early in the chapter, setting the Shieldhall meeting for the start of the evening watch. By the time the meeting it's over, night's begun.

ETA: I don't think Mel's seeing the ash and snowflakes while she's seeing the vision (as something outside her vision but literally occurring) because she's reading the fires from inside her chambers.

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ETA: I don't think Mel's seeing the ash and snowflakes while she's seeing the vision (as something outside her vision but literally occurring) because she's reading the fires from inside her chambers.

The ash and snowflakes might just also be a subtle reference to the ice and fire motif. This is a tough one. As pointed out, Mel's unreliability in interpreting leaves so many possibilities open...

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First off, this is not me — it's Butterbumps, who brought this point up in the thread asking if Jon's assassination was premeditated. I just happen to think it's very interesting and worth its own topic.

At issue here is, of course, the vision(s) that Melisandre has of Jon surrounded by skulls and the references to "daggers in the dark." Many people, probably even most people, assume that this is a vision of Jon's impending death, to the point where several commenters give Jon grief for not believing in Melisandre's visions and heeding her warning.

But what did she actually see?

The thing about Melisandre's visions, repeatedly, is that what she sees is technically accurate, but her interpretation is rarely if ever correct. For instance: Yes, she sees "Renly" taking King's Landing, but it's not actually Renly. She sees a girl on a horse, but it's not Arya. She sees towers falling, but (you can surmise) it's not actually Eastwatch. So if Melisandre sees skulls and daggers around Jon and concludes that that vision represents danger to him, shouldn't that be kind of a red flag, given her track record, that that might not be what she's actually seeing?

Butterbumps, in the assassination thread, suggested that this vision might have to do with the Winterfell crypt, which is dark (was it actually even dark when Jon was stabbed?) and contains actual skulls and daggers (well, swords). Given the theory that something of tangible or symbolic significance to Jon is in the crypts, it would be ironic if the vision that Melisandre thought pointed to Jon's demise was actually something affirmative for him — proof of his parentage, some sort of information or weapon, etc.

We know that interpreting visions and prophecies correctly is very difficult. Marwyn comments as much. On this forum, we argue about the correct interpretation of visions and prophecies, and we have the advantage, unlike Melisandre, of having an overview of what's happening in Westeros and Essos.

Melisandre is actually very good at interpreting such things, but fallible. She identifies the threat from the Others, long before anyone else does. She predicts the deaths of Robb Stark, Balon Greyjoy, and Joffrey. She shows Stannis the fight on Fist of the First Men. She identifies that Cressen and Davos both plan to assasinate her. She identifies a threat to Jon, from supposed allies, and later tells him to look to the skies (ie for Ramsay's purported letter); she predicts that the three rangers will be found dead, and that the expedition to Hardhome is doomed (which seems correct).

Mistaking the identity of Alys Karstark is pretty minor. Her big error (apparently) is to mistake Stannis for Azhor Ahai.

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Butterbumps, in the assassination thread, suggested that this vision might have to do with the Winterfell crypt, which is dark (was it actually even dark when Jon was stabbed?) and contains actual skulls and daggers (well, swords). Given the theory that something of tangible or symbolic significance to Jon is in the crypts, it would be ironic if the vision that Melisandre thought pointed to Jon's demise was actually something affirmative for him — proof of his parentage, some sort of information or weapon, etc.

I gather the gist of this thread is to argue why Mel’s interpretation of her visions may be unreliable. With that said I’m a sucker for wordplay and also how GRRM sometimes writes passages that we as readers have to figure out. A particular book passage quoted on this thread interested me.

Mel’s: “Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold.”

Why didn’t GRRM write her as saying “I see ice and daggers in the dark.”

Is she seeing ice (bad prophetic vision), but GRRM is hinting at Ice (Age of Heroes Ice)?

I don’t mean to make this a crackpot thread but what if,

“Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel.” Does not mean death due to violence but actual old frozen blood on a sword (hinting at the Nissa Nissa stuff (I'm struggling with this idea, needs more revising)).

“It was very cold.” The Winterfell tombs are dark and cold (even more so in winter).

Sorry if this has been mentioned before in other threads.

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You know what always nugged me (except for Mel's interpretations being usually wrong)? That I don't think it was that dark when the Jon thing happened. On a thread a few months ago I asked this, and someone pointed out it really was evening, but weren't there torches and stuff? I mean, I got the impressions that everyone was pretty much seing everything.

Daggers in the dark - I imagine something like Bran's failed assassination attempt - some sneaky assassin going there at night to kill him in his sleep. I mean, Jon's assassination seemed too "public" and visible to be qualified as daggers in the dark.

Then you get Pycelle and Kevan's deaths by the little birds - yes, it fits perfectly as someone pointed out, but she has only seen events relevant to the North, Jon and Stannis till now.

So my take on the whole thing is - Mel really saw daggers in the dark, but she (and us through her) are being red-herringed: once by Jon's death, and only us, as readers, are being red herringed by Kevan and Pycelle's death, and the real event she saw is yet to happen.

Whether Malisandre "forced" Jon's assasination to fulfill the prophecy, there was no prophecy and she was plain warning him (she orcestrated it), or she had no idea of the plot agains him is up to question though.

I think it'd be more likely if one or the other was a red herring. And I think she only has "had visions that pertain to the North" simply because she applies whatever visions she gets to her situation. She's kinda forced a lot of things, which is why I think she inadvertently warned Jon about what was going on, even though her vision wasn't HIS death she saw

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Does she actually see Skulls and Daggers surrounding him at the same time? Or are they two seperate visions? I got the impression that they are separate. If so, then I believe her vision of him surrounded by daggers does represent his assassination. She got that part right imo.

This vision I think represents his resurrection. Going off you're idea that Mel's visions are literal, I believe that they will try to burn Jon's body. That's why she sees his face limned in tongues of fire. I think the Skulls will come from his funeral pyre raging out control (this is initiated by someone, BR or perhaps even Mel) killing many of the people at Castle Black. Their deaths will pay for Jon's life, and when Jon "wakes up" he will find himself surrounded by their (burnt) skulls.

Shireen had a vision of a dragon eating her, no? If she dies in said fire, then her dream of being eaten by a dragon (Jon) will have come true I'd think...

Interesting take on Jon's resurrection.

On the daggers in the dark, I agree Mel is often incorrect in her conclusions on visions and may have misinterpreted or combined things. I'm not sure if we are ever going to get concrete evidence on the completion of all of the visions of Mel, Patchface, House of the Undying, etc. A lot of them are up for interpretation and we will probably still be arguing over them in the end. :)

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Here's something I posted long ago - but please, I do not wish to FLAMED for offering up an opinion.

"The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen."

I parsed these lines for the significance of the wording. These words are smartly written, and I think they give some evidence, although I am just offering an opinion!

First, note that Martin employs a theatre motif with Mel, her glamors that disguise people in costume and Martin’s language denotes a staged show:

she heard the whispered name Jon Snow

  1. Whispering is associated with the theatre for an audience must be silent, and if they speak, their words should be whispers.
  2. Actors whisper back stage giving directions and preparing for their entrance, etc.

a fluttering curtain.

  1. Her flames are the stage lighting
  2. as well as the curtains that open to reveal the performance area, or Mel’s prophetic visions.

Appearing and disappearing

A magician makes things disappear and reappear:

a shadow half-seen behind

I immediately thought SHADE from Homer. Look at what the Wiki says:

  1. In literature and poetry, a shade (translating Greek σκιά Latin umbra) can be taken to mean the spirit or ghost of a dead person, residing in the underworld.
  2. The image of an underworld where the dead live in shadow is common to the Ancient Near East, in Biblical Hebrew expressed by the term tsalmaveth, literally "death-shadow" The Witch of Endor in the First Book of Samuel notably conjures the ghost (owb) of Samuel.
  3. Perhaps Mel’s vision, in this context, tells us that Jon Snow is DEAD when she sees him – he is already a shade. [she cannot see the death-shadow accurately]
  4. Her vision is speaking to the fact that Jon is wolf = wolf is Jon.

Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again

  1. Mel misinterprets her vision. Jon in death will move from JON to WOLF; then WOLF will move back to JON.
  2. Martin intimates this will be done magically – for the theatre terms indicate it is like a magic show – so abracadabra! Jon is dead. Jon is Ghost.
  3. In theatre, these would be interchangeable masks: Ghost returns Jon to Ghost.

Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark.

Mel sees how Jon died,[but she doesn't ealize it] as well as the men who killed him. [she earlier offered to give him their names].

Since the entire context of this passage is a magic show in miniature, whose magic will “assist” Ghost in return Jon back to his dead body?

The most logical choice is Ghost – with the help of his own brother Bran. Bran knows – the birds always mentioned in the rafters of the halls are keeping an eye on what’s going on.

Ghost = BR = Bran =CoF=Weirwood trees and their faces=the old gods.

After breaking down the wording here, it seems clearer now that she misinterpreted what she sees, as she has before.

Do not flame me, please! I never saw anyone break this down before in theatrical terms. It is deliberate, for Martin also connects Braavos with masks and whispers, and we all know who is performing on stage there? Wearing masks of her own?

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I thought "curtain" = "curtain of smoke," which would also explain why he disappears and reappears from sight.

I don't favor the "Jon dies, goes into Ghost, comes back to a body" because of what we learn of death and warging in Varamyr's Prologue, which maintains that once the body has died one is stuck in the animal. I suppose this could be mitigated by something like the Kiss of Life, but I dislike Mel's resurrection as an issue of becoming beholden to her brand of magic that he so actively as fought against. I dislike it, but I suppose it could happen that way.

My best guess is that Jon is unconscious, awakens his warging abilities as Bran did (I think Bran spent time in Summer in his coma) and rises as himself. The passage is tricky, in that the flames that limn his face and the curtain of smoke are not part of the vision but the medium of the fire. For what it's worth, it's just his face she sees. If the limning flames and smoke are in fact part of the vision, he could simply be holding a torch somewhere dark-- CotF's caves, the Winterfell crypts, etc. It doesn't necessarily have to point to his burning-- especially that the flames are said to reflect against his face liminally suggests distance.

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I thought Jon being surrounded by skulls is showing .... a lot of people will probably die, and Jon will be at the centre of it.

(Sorry if it's been said)

This. But not limited to just Wildlings Vs. Watch bloodshed. I think the skulls signify that Jon will be a decider of fates. In a big way. Large scale. Like, his decisions will involve saving some kingdoms instead of others, and these other peoples will be lost to The Others. Some kind of gut-wrenching scenario like that where death seems to follow him around, but mostly just because he's the one in the thick of things.

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Great question and post and idea. I have to say it is extremely interesting that despite Mel's constant recitation of "daggers in the dark", there's really not much there.

I wonder what would have happened had Jon taken up Mel on her earlier offer to reveal his enemies to him who were plotting against him? Jon understandably says "No, get the heck away from me you crazy fool", but I wonder if this was just a total bluff or not.

I like to imagine an alternate scenario where Jon goes "Sure, tell me who my enemies are", and Mel awkwardly tries to come up with random names on the spot a la Family Guy (Pea....tear....griffin).

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Great question and post and idea. I have to say it is extremely interesting that despite Mel's constant recitation of "daggers in the dark", there's really not much there.

I wonder what would have happened had Jon taken up Mel on her earlier offer to reveal his enemies to him who were plotting against him? Jon understandably says "No, get the heck away from me you crazy fool", but I wonder if this was just a total bluff or not.

I like to imagine an alternate scenario where Jon goes "Sure, tell me who my enemies are", and Mel awkwardly tries to come up with random names on the spot a la Family Guy (Pea....tear....griffin).

I think even Tommen in KL could probably take a pretty good guess as to who these "dagger wielders" might be, since they really didn't seem to hide their contempt. She could have probably given him a list of conspirators and it certainly would not have required a vision in the fire; one would have to be blind not to see it. And then Mance tells her of King Scum's conspiracy session, so she as good as had a confirmed laundry list at that point.

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