403 replies to this topic

[wolverine]

Frey Pie, on 30 November 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Tylin and Mats relationship is a weird one. Ill be honest i never saw it as rape until people said it here. Mat does care about her, he mourns for her when he hears what the Gholem did

In any case im currently on Knife of Dreams and really enjoying it. Not getting the time to read i wish i had, but some good parts.

Charlz Guybon is an interesting secondary character. Rand at the manor was great, and Loails story is one im very much looking forward to reading more on, We also get the reveal of Thoms mysterious letter from a dead woman. I dont like Egwene but i like her style in the Tower. Its her monologues when she gives out about Nynaeve and others that turn me against her

Me too, but maybe I am a pig who finds it difficult to think of a man getting raped.

[awesome possum]

To be honest I never saw it that way the first time I read it, but upon this reread.  She pulls a knife on him when he grabs her arm to forcefully remove her from his room, and she pushes him with the knife to his bed.

[wolverine]

awesome possum, on 30 November 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

To be honest I never saw it that way the first time I read it, but upon this reread.  She pulls a knife on him when he grabs her arm to forcefully remove her from his room, and she pushes him with the knife to his bed.

I don't really remember, how does Mat see it?

[Frey Pie]

wolverine, on 01 December 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

I don't really remember, how does Mat see it?

Thats the thing. IIRC Mat is exasperated with her and wants to get away, but in the way that a guy sometimes is with a woman-kinda not bothered about actually staying but saying he is. He obviously cared about her and found her extrememly attractive, which leads me to believe it wasnt rape. That said i havent read those chapters for a while, but it seems thats the way it is with Mat alot. He gets the woman, but doesnt wanna stay long. Its the same with Tuon at the start-he knows hes to marry her but he hates the thought of marrying nobility-always slightly grudging. The onlty difference he stands by her

[Which Tyler]

From my memory - it starts off as basically rape (whilst admiring her beauty); with exasperation and affection growing in time.

He is definitely unwilling, and fighting it, initially

[awesome possum]

Yep, but Jordan gives it a rather sexist twist.  Mat is mostly upset about it because he is supposed to be the one doing the chasing.  Not being chased.

[Which Tyler]

Absolutely - I don't think Jordan saw it as rape; he just messed up his presentation IMO, and made it rape.

[fionwe1987]

Werthead, on 30 November 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Impressive sales clarification right from the horse's mouth (Tom Doherty): the oft-mentioned 44 million sales figure for WoT is for the US and Canada alone. Based on the traditional ratio of North American to worldwide sales, that means that total worldwide sales could be in the region of 80-90 million.

Wowsers.

Why haven't they been touting that number more? Almost a 100 million sounds way cooler than 44 million. And wasn't the 44 million number around even before the last two books came out?

And they got Rothfuss to talk about it? He said he'd only read the first book, ages ago!

Edited by fionwe1987, 01 December 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[Poobah]

I didn't know about chapter one. I'm reading it now but I just got to an Egwene bit and suddenly I've lost the will to live

[Werthead]

Quote

Why haven't they been touting that number more?

The '2x US sales = worldwide sales' thing is a very loose approximation, with a lot of elasticity. Based on the relationship between Jordan's various publishers, coallating a reliable worldwide figure may be pretty much impossible, so they fall back on the North American sales alone, which they have strong records for.

And I don't know why they are still using the 2007 figure and not added the figures for TGS and ToM. I assume they'd have added at least another million or two onto the figure.

[Shryke]

awesome possum, on 01 December 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

Yep, but Jordan gives it a rather sexist twist.  Mat is mostly upset about it because he is supposed to be the one doing the chasing.  Not being chased.

That's pretty much what Mat would think though.

[Frey Pie]

Shryke, on 01 December 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

That's pretty much what Mat would think though.

I agree. Mat likes the hunt, but doesnt like to be the prey. Like when he was with that Shaido maiden who was a darkfriend. When she started dominating him, he wanted to leave. Then he had to kill her when she went Dark on him. I honestly dont see it as rape

[Shryke]

I don't see how that doesn't make it rape.

I'm just saying the sexist way Mat thinks is pretty much exactly how his character would think.

[Frey Pie]

As i feel that Mat wasnt unwilling to have sex with Tylin, he just wanted to get away after a while because he doesnt like being tied down. He had feelings for her which is clear. Would he have had such feelings for her if she raped him over and over? To me its him not being used to being the hunted and not the hunter, which still allows him to develop feelings for her. Hes the best fighter in the series. If he truly wanted to say no to Tylin why wouldnt he have?

As i say i havent read this part in a while, but this is my memory and assessment of Mats situation

Edited by Frey Pie, 01 December 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Considering that even in his own mind he wanted to kill the gholam (which autocorrect wants to call "Chilean") to avenge Tylin, I think he had very strong feelings for her, far stronger than he wanted to admit to himself.

That said, it was totally rape at the start. Tylin literally threatened him (implicitly) with a knife if he didn't comply.

[fionwe1987]

Has anyone here heard of this thing called Stockholm's Syndrome? Read up on it. Might be interesting...

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

It's more than that (though there's an element to that in it, I think). Before they sleep together he has to keep reminding himself that he can't look at / think about a queen in the way that he is. So he was always attracted to her.

[The WaterDancer Knight]

Frey Pie, on 01 December 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

As i feel that Mat wasnt unwilling to have sex with Tylin, he just wanted to get away after a while because he doesnt like being tied down. He had feelings for her which is clear. Would he have had such feelings for her if she raped him over and over? To me its him not being used to being the hunted and not the hunter, which still allows him to develop feelings for her. Hes the best fighter in the series. If he truly wanted to say no to Tylin why wouldnt he have?

You just used the same excuses that are used by many rapist to justify their crime. Reverse the gender while keeping the same age and social position of each one : Mat becomes a 18 or 19 year old young woman and Tylin a king in his late 30' or early 40' with a daughter as old as his prey. Now take a lokk at the situation. Do you still think there is not any rape going on ?

[Solmyr]

RE: e-book release - I feel sorry for everyone who'll have to wait for the ebook. I'm just glad they are not delaying the audiobook.

RE: Mat-Tylin. I don't care how it started, point is Mat has genuine feelings for Tylin at the end, tho he manages to hide them even from himself. But several times throughout the latest volumes he thinks back on how he left her tied for the golam to find and can't help blaming himself. Then when he fights the golam he screams Tylin's name, overwhelmed by grief for her and vengeance for her murderer.

[David Selig]

How is this even a discussion? Mat avoided Tylin for days, going as far as going hungry during this time in order to stay away from her, sneaking out of the palace before dawn through the back door, etc. A number of times he thinks how getting involved with a Queen is just about the last thing he wants. Eventually she got him alone and made him have sex with her at knife point. If this isn't rape, I don't know what is.