403 replies to this topic

[Solmyr]

David Selig, on 02 December 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

How is this even a discussion? Mat avoided Tylin for days, going as far as going hungry during this time in order to stay away from her, sneaking out of the palace before dawn through the back door, etc. A number of times he thinks how getting involved with a Queen is just about the last thing he wants. Eventually she got him alone and made him have sex with her at knife point. If this isn't rape, I don't know what is.

You have any idea how many people who are in love with someone do the exact same thing? I am not implying Mat was in love with Tylin, but there are plenty of other reasons to avoid a person, besides the fear of rape.

[David Selig]

Mat wasn't in love with Tylin at this point. He thought she looked attractive, just like most women he ever meets, that was all.

But even if he was in love, so what? It doesn't change anything, It's still a rape. He didn't want to have sex but Tylin forced him to do it.

[Solmyr]

David, you are ignoring the unique societal aspects of Randland. Most of it is a matriarchy with Ebu Dar being on the more extreme end of the curve. From our perspective (21st century, Earth) what Tylin did might be considered rape, but no one in Randland thinks / would think of it this way. Even Mat himself, who is "the victim" (in your opinion) does not think of it that way. He's displeased because for once he's not the one doing "the chasing". He's not displeased by the end result, not at all - he remarks on it several times, that it was pleasant. Rape is not pleasant.

It is a high-fantasy book we're discussing, please be considerate of the unique aspects of the world wherein the characters in question are living.

Edited by Solmyr, 02 December 2012 - 08:50 AM.

[Frey Pie]

The WaterDancer Knight, on 02 December 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

You just used the same excuses that are used by many rapist to justify their crime. Reverse the gender while keeping the same age and social position of each one : Mat becomes a 18 or 19 year old young woman and Tylin a king in his late 30' or early 40' with a daughter as old as his prey. Now take a lokk at the situation. Do you still think there is not any rape going on ?

Im not in anyway trying to justify rape. In fact im kinda pissed anyone would think that. Mat doesnt consider it rape. He has feelings for her. She "forced"him to have sex with her. Except Mat is the best fighter in the series, beating two prospective blademasters when he was sick. If he had really not wanted to have sex with her could she have forced him? No

Solmyr, on 02 December 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

David, you are ignoring the unique societal aspects of Randland. Most of it is a matriarchy with Ebu Dar being on the more extreme end of the curve. From our perspective (21st century, Earth) what Tylin did might be considered rape, but no one in Randland thinks / would think of it this way. Even Mat himself, who is "the victim" (in your opinion) does not think of it that way. He's displeased because for once he's not the one doing "the chasing". He's not displeased by the end result, not at all - he remarks on it several times, that it was pleasant. Rape is not pleasant.

It is a high-fantasy book we're discussing, please be considerate of the unique aspects of the world wherein the characters in question are living.

Exactly. Well said.

Edited by Frey Pie, 02 December 2012 - 09:04 AM.

[Corvinus]

Frey Pie, on 02 December 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Im not in anyway trying to justify rape. In fact im kinda pissed anyone would think that. Mat doesnt consider it rape. He has feelings for her. She "forced"him to have sex with her. Except Mat is the best fighter in the series, beating two prospective blademasters when he was sick. If he had really not wanted to have sex with her could she have forced him? No

Exactly. Well said.

Yes, well said both of you.

[David Selig]

Most of Randland is not a matriarchy. The place where Mat grew up certainly isn't.

The claim that nobody in Randland would considered it rape is both wrong and irrelevant. The concept of female raping a male certainly exists there - the Aes Sedai consider it rape to bond a man against his will and/or using the bond to compel him for sex. Setalle Anan thought Tywin not letting Mat leave in WH was wrong.

Even if Mat liked it, it's still rape. Besides, before going to get the Bowl (after the first time Mat and Tylin had sex), he was really aghast when Elayne told him they'd need to stay an additional half a week in the Palace because he wanted to get far away from Tylin and her unwanted attention ASAP.

Frey Pie, on 02 December 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Im not in anyway trying to justify rape. In fact im kinda pissed anyone would think that. Mat doesnt consider it rape. He has feelings for her. She "forced"him to have sex with her. Except Mat is the best fighter in the series, beating two prospective blademasters when he was sick. If he had really not wanted to have sex with her could she have forced him? No

Of course she could. She's a Queen, remember? All she had to do was call her guards. And Mat knew it.

Edited by David Selig, 02 December 2012 - 10:05 AM.

[Frey Pie]

David Selig, on 02 December 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Most of Randland is not a matriarchy. The place where Mat grew up certainly isn't.

The claim that nobody in Randland would considered it rape is both wrong and irrelevant. The concept of female raping a male certainly exists there - the Aes Sedai consider it rape to bond a man against his will and/or using the bond to compel him for sex. Setalle Anan thought Tywin not letting Mat leave in WH was wrong.

Even if Mat liked it, it's still rape. Besides, before going to get the Bowl (after the first time Mat and Tylin had sex), he was really aghast when Elayne told him they'd need to stay an additional half a week in the Palace because he wanted to get far away from Tylin and her unwanted attention ASAP.


Of course she could. She's a Queen, remember? All she had to do was call her guards. And Mat knew it.

Is the Womens Circle more powerful in Emonds Field than the Village Council? Politically many countries in Randland are dominated by females, and they are at least equals in others. I dont think Tylin would have forced her guards to force him to have sex with her. Mats two main problems were:
She was a Queen-over and over Mat talks of his aversion to nobles, how many times does he talk about Elyane being pretty, but a noble?
She dominated him instead of it being equal or the other way

Theres only one instance in the books where Mat didnt want to get away from a lover or romance and thats because he knew he was destined to marry her. This is his nature. Mat is upset that he cant leave. Hes not upset that hes getting raped. IIRC hes more embarassed about being dominated (having his clothes changed and such) than upset. If anything its pride. If i take your case that it was rape, why doesnt he just come out and say it? Why does he have such strong, long lasting feelings for her?

[Frey Pie]

In any case, finished Knife of Dreams last night. Excellent book IMO. Pacing is quicker then the few before it. We see a lot of resolution in these books-Perrin and Faile are finely reunited, Tuon and Mat hook up, Semirhage is captured and so on. Egwene develops as a character, as does Elayne. Pevara is far more interesting then i remembered her to be. Other minor characters become more fleshed out-Sevanna, Elaida, Alviarin etc. Rand has to be the hardest man around with the whole Semirhage fight not affecting him one bit

[Which Tyler]

Mat doesn't consider it to be rape. We've covered this, many times already; personally, I still put this down to bad writing more than anything else, Jordan didn't consider it to be rape; but he presented it as rape; if Jordan didn't think of it that way, then how the hell would he put those thoughts into Matt's head?
This doesn't mean that it wasn't rape

Equally, Danny doesn't consider Drogo to be a rapist. This doesn't mean that she's right either.

Of course, we shouldn't apply modern viewpoints to non-modern events; but it doesn't change facts (even fictional facts).

Matt's feelings months later don't really apply to his thoughts and feelings at the time; using his later feelings to justify the earlier acts is at least as faulty as judging with modern eyes.

[Poobah]

Solmyr, on 02 December 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

David, you are ignoring the unique societal aspects of Randland. Most of it is a matriarchy with Ebu Dar being on the more extreme end of the curve. From our perspective (21st century, Earth) what Tylin did might be considered rape, but no one in Randland thinks / would think of it this way. Even Mat himself, who is "the victim" (in your opinion) does not think of it that way. He's displeased because for once he's not the one doing "the chasing". He's not displeased by the end result, not at all - he remarks on it several times, that it was pleasant. Rape is not pleasant.

It is a high-fantasy book we're discussing, please be considerate of the unique aspects of the world wherein the characters in question are living.

a) It doesn't matter if it isn't rape by randland standards. It's still rape.
B) It doesn't matter if later on he thinks things worked out with Tylin, if he regrets her death or whatever. It's still rape.
c) it doesn't matter if he had multiple screaming orgasms. He said no. She forced him. RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE.

Sex. Consent. Consent. Sex. How do people still not understand how this works? People get raped all the fucking time and not by evil looking masked men in dark alleyways. No wonder it's so fucking impossible to get a conviction in acquaintance rape cases.

Edited by Poobah, 02 December 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[Lightning Lord]

Frey Pie, on 02 December 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Is the Womens Circle more powerful in Emonds Field than the Village Council? Politically many countries in Randland are dominated by females, and they are at least equals in others. I dont think Tylin would have forced her guards to force him to have sex with her.

At some point, Mat does recall to the reader an instance where...I think Tylin's servants physically haul him into a bedchamber.  And Tylin put a knife to Mat's throat and made him have sex with her.  Mat was convinced she'd use the knife, too.  Yet you think she'd even pause before using her guards?  Okay...I guess we'll have to disagree on this one.

[AlexT]

It's so obviously rape. Not sure where the ambiguity is. As someone said above, reverse the genders. If you're still cool with it after that then that's a different problem.

[Sheep the Evicted]

Lightning Lord, on 02 December 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

At some point, Mat does recall to the reader an instance where...I think Tylin's servants physically haul him into a bedchamber.  And Tylin put a knife to Mat's throat and made him have sex with her.  Mat was convinced she'd use the knife, too.  Yet you think she'd even pause before using her guards?  Okay...I guess we'll have to disagree on this one.

Yeah but this doesnt quite cout because Mat is very very capable of defending himself. Knowig what we kow about Mat's "hidden layers" if he really geniuenely didnt want to have sex with Tylin there isn't a whole lot she or her guards could have done to force him. Keyword force.

Which is why i always thought Mat was purposefully teasing Tylin with all his no's. Maybe even seducing her.

[fionwe1987]

Sheep the Evicted, on 03 December 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

Yeah but this doesnt quite cout because Mat is very very capable of defending himself. Knowig what we kow about Mat's "hidden layers" if he really geniuenely didnt want to have sex with Tylin there isn't a whole lot she or her guards could have done to force him. Keyword force.

Which is why i always thought Mat was purposefully teasing Tylin with all his no's. Maybe even seducing her.

Wait... you think Mat is capable of fighting off more than 5-6 people at once? That's absolutely ludicrous.

And re-read the scene where she threatens him with a knife. He had no way to fight that. And was clearly afraid of being stabbed!

You know, reading all these comments about Mat being, essentially, too awesome to be raped, I can't help but feel RJ really lost a huge opportunity with this storyline. If only he hadn't tried to make it "light-hearted", whatever that means in this context.

[Winter's Knight]

Sheep the Evicted, on 03 December 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

Yeah but this doesnt quite cout because Mat is very very capable of defending himself. Knowig what we kow about Mat's "hidden layers" if he really geniuenely didnt want to have sex with Tylin there isn't a whole lot she or her guards could have done to force him. Keyword force.

Which is why i always thought Mat was purposefully teasing Tylin with all his no's. Maybe even seducing her.

Wait, so Mat could safely fight off this woman who is a queen with no unpleasant consequences if he chose to do so? Really?

[Sheep the Evicted]

fionwe1987, on 03 December 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

Wait... you think Mat is capable of fighting off more than 5-6 people at once? That's absolutely ludicrous.

Well actually yes, yes i do. Especially to a few guards who went to summon Tylins boy toy and aren't expecting any resistance. But even if im wrong Mat has alot more going for him then just brute force, he could have gone to ground, he could have called on his powerful allies for help (would Tylin dare go against the authority of the white tower?).

fionwe1987, on 03 December 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

And re-read the scene where she threatens him with a knife. He had no way to fight that. And was clearly afraid of being stabbed!

I don't have the scene to hand but frankly i can't see how a serious mat could be threatened by that. Imagine if mat found out tylin was a darkfriend and about to kill egwene, i can't see any scenario without him taking that knife of tylin as easily as taking candy from a baby.

fionwe1987, on 03 December 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

You know, reading all these comments about Mat being, essentially, too awesome to be raped, I can't help but feel RJ really lost a huge opportunity with this storyline. If only he hadn't tried to make it "light-hearted", whatever that means in this context.

Maybe. Again i was a young adolescent when i read the books and very much caught up in Mats awesomeness but back then i definitely got the feeling that Mat was getting what he really wanted.

Edited by Sheep the Evicted, 03 December 2012 - 09:15 AM.

[Rhom]

I'm still a little confused how this discussion is popping up so forcefully now...  but I'll dive in as well I suppose.

This all happens in what book?  A Crown of Swords?  And that was published in 1996.  Jordan died in 2007.  

In those 11 years, did no one actually ask him at a signing or other event whether he meant for the interactions to have been rape?  I agree that by our definitions, the interaction is rape.  However, I'm like Sheep above me; when I first read the book in 2000 at age 22, my youthful mind did not read it as rape at the time.  Nor do I find it easy to believe that Jordan intended it to be such.  If that's the case, it really is quite damning for his writing skills that he could come across so poorly with taht section.

[The_Reaver]

It was rape, but Mat was not angry at being forced. he was disturbed because in his mind he was supposd to do all the chasing. this is exactly how a charcter like mat would feel. And, i think this was exactly what Jordan intented this scene to be.

Edit- Don't forget the reaction of Elayne and Nayneve. They remarked that Mat deserved it for always going after women.

Edited by The_Reaver, 03 December 2012 - 09:37 AM.

[Lightning Lord]

Sheep -
Killing queen's guards/servants would absolutely have led to unpleasant consequences.  Like beheading.  And I don't care how awesome Mat is, Tylin had a knife at his throat and pushed him up against the bedpost.  How exactly is Mat going to disarm someone whose knife is literally at his throat?  As for "going to ground," Mat was responsible for the command of his redarms, for Olver's safety, and felt that he was 100% responsible for Elayne and Nynaeve's safety (and had recently learned about darkfriends traipsing about).  Had he been willing to abandon every person that was depending upon him (including a small boy), yes, he probably could have gotten away from Tylin before she locked him in the bedchamber and pulled a knife on him.

So, yes, there is probably a way Mat could have avoided being raped.  That doesn't change the absolute fact that he was raped.  Re-read it if you feel you may have outgrown your previous childish perceptions of sexual assault/rape/reality.


Semi-related:  Judging from quotes in others' posts, I do believe fionwe and I have agreed on something.  Hot damn.

[awesome possum]

Sheep the Evicted, on 03 December 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

Which is why i always thought Mat was purposefully teasing Tylin with all his no's. Maybe even seducing her.

Again, switch the genders.  And then see how those two sentences above verge on the disgusting.

The_Reaver, on 03 December 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Edit- Don't forget the reaction of Elayne and Nayneve. They remarked that Mat deserved it for always going after women.

No they didn't, or if they did it was a passing remark on the immediate reaction.  Nynaeve went directly to Tylin and had a talk with her when she found out the truth.  And Elayne was ashamed at the way they had treated Mat after finding out.