Eddard's Letter

[wolfmaid7]

Hey guys my topic today has to do with the letter Ned may or may not have sent out via Varys. I have to admit when i first read AGOT i didn't think much of it. In light of all the schemes Varys may have, he may also have info of vital importance in playing the game of thrones.Take a look at the dialogue that took place in the dungeon.

Ned: "Would you at least consent to carry a message out for me?"

Varys: "That would depend on the message. I will gladly provide you with paper and ink, if you like. And when you have written what you will, I will take the letter and read it, and deliver it or not, as best serves my own end." (pg. 633,

I am one of those who believe that R+L=J , If this is true can you imagine Varys having this info. You may ask why would Ned put something so important in a letter knowing that Varys would read it.

My answer would be that depends on whether or not Ned believed Varys when he said " I serve the realm" and i do this for the children.

What do you guys think ? What implications in your minds can this letter have?

[Gannicus]

Very interesting

The answer is really dependent on what Varys' true motives are. We don't really know for sure if Varys is a Targ man, an exclusively Blackfyre man, or just a guy trying to put this boy Aegon on the throne. I suspect Varys will keep the information to himself unless all other roads are blocked.

But it would be interesting if Varys is the one to reavel L+R=J

Nice catch.

[Fire Eater]

Ned was told he would take the black if he confessed to treason. If he took the black, he would meet Jon at Castle Black and tell him the truth about his parentage in person, which was safer than relaying such sensitive information by letter where it could be read by other people.

[Fitzochris]

I like the theory, but have to concur with the fact that Ned thought he was Wall-bound at the point of this conversation and so would have thought he'd be seeing Jon in the flesh soon.

Either way, Ned did put something in writing and Varys did read it - so I'm sure all will be revealed in either of the next two books.

[A wilding]

Either way, Ned did put something in writing and Varys did read it - so I'm sure all will be revealed in either of the next two books.

We do not know Ned put anything in writing. The last mention of this possible letter is when Varys told Ned he would use it for his own purposes - enough to justify Ned thinking no further about the idea, especially as Varys then gave Ned plenty of other things to think about.

[Where Boars Glow]

Hey guys my topic today has to do with the letter Ned sent out via Varys. I have to admit when i first read AGOT i didn't think much of it. In light of all the schemes Varys may have, he may also have info of vital importance in playing the game of thrones.Take a look at the dialogue that took place in the dungeon.

Ned: "Would you at least consent to carry a message out for me?"

Varys: "That would depend on the message. I will gladly provide you with paper and ink, if you like. And when you have written what you will, I will take the letter and read it, and deliver it or not, as best serves my own end." (pg. 633,

I am one of those who believe that R+L=J , If this is true can you imagine Varys having this info. You may ask why would Ned put something so important in a letter knowing that Varys would read it.

My answer would be that depends on whether or not Ned believed Varys when he said " I serve the realm" and i do this for the children.

What do you guys think ? What implications in your minds can this letter have?

This is making the large assumption that Varys doesn't already know R + L = J

[Fitzochris]

We do not know Ned put anything in writing. The last mention of this possible letter is when Varys told Ned he would use it for his own purposes - enough to justify Ned thinking no further about the idea, especially as Varys then gave Ned plenty of other things to think about.

This is quite possible, of course, but I think Ned did write his letter.

All through his POV chapters, his internal monologue refers to the promise he made his sister. The chapter with Varys is Ned's last and I always felt the letter was Ned finally vocalising his promise to Lyanna. What that promise is, and to who he was intending to vocalise it, I don't know.

That's just the way I've always thought about it.

[Free Man]

This is making the large assumption that Varys doesn't already know R + L = J

Varys was a child when that happened, and has no knowledge. No one knows apart from Ned and Howland Reed. Seing as Eddard did not tell anyone, and Reed is loyal to the starks to the end, I do not see how Varys might have had that knowledge

[mcb]

Excuse me, but did Ned actually write a letter? I was under the impression that he decided against it, precisely because he didn't trust Varys.

Varys was a child when that happened...

Varys was the master of whisperers for Aerys II.

[Fitzochris]

Excuse me

You're excused.

[wolfmaid7]

I think to a big extent Ned did trust Varys a little . Why i say this because he "asked" him if he could take a letter out for him. Why ask if you didn't trust a little. I'm saying maybe Varys did convince Ned that he " serves the realm and he's doing it for the children". I mean what better way to convince Ned was to say i'm going to read your letter. Reverse psychology .I don't know, i just feel there is something there with that, whether he wrote it or didn't is left hanging to me.

[wolfmaid7]

Ned was told he would take the black if he confessed to treason. If he took the black, he would meet Jon at Castle Black and tell him the truth about his parentage in person, which was safer than relaying such sensitive information by letter where it could be read by other people.

Did he? i thought he thought that was a lie and he was going to die, but what changed his mind was that Sansa might be in danger.

[A wilding]

... but what changed his mind was that Sansa might be in danger.

And he knew that before he would have written this hypothetical letter.

[wolfmaid7]

And he knew that before he would have written this hypothetical letter.

Sorry "A wildling" but for some reason a large chunk of my quote was gone.What should have been before that piece you quoted was the following: Eddard was told by Varys if he confessed he would be allowed to take the black.The only reason he changes his mind about "confessing" was that Varys implied that his children would be in danger. To go further i doubt Eddard truly trusted the Lannisters ( Cersie) would let him live knowing what he knew about her kids.As Eddard himself said to Varys " i am not afraid to die" i interpreted from the dialogue with Varys that he knew for sure he was a dead man. That knowledge would no way negate-if he believed Varys is serving the realm- the need to write Jon.

So in response to you, i was referring to him changing his mind about confessing that Jeoffry is the true heir yada yada yada. He was in a dungeon for a while because he wouldn't back of his claim that Geoffry wasn't Robert's heir.

[wolfmaid7]

Now for my crack pot theory. If Eddard did write a letter to Jon at the wall. Who would have been his point of contact,if say Mormont got it would he keep that knowledge from Jon until he was ready. I recall this dialogue

“King,” the bird said again.

“I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.”

“The realm has three kings already, and that’s two too many for my liking.” Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

I may be wrong in my deduction but did the raven's eyes never leave Jon or did Mormont's eyes never leave Jon? if it was Mormont what would be the reason for that little tidbit by GRRM. Unless we the readers are to infer that Mormont has some info about Jon.Mormont can be seen as a mentor to Jon and certain things he said to Jon made me think. Craster's keep- I'll look for the exact part- when Jon didn't follow some order- can't remember which. But here's the dialouge to that effect.

Mormont:

Do you want to lead someday?”

Jon “yes".

Mormont: “Then learn how to follow.”

Some may say grooming for command of the NW but again maybe Mormont knew something and was just preparing Jon.

It's a crackpot i know awww i hate what this world does to the mind :bang:

[Fitzochris]

Mormont was a sworn man of the Watch and believed in its values. He wouldn't care if Jon was Stark, Targaryen or bastard, as long as he served the Watch. If he did withhold the info it would be to stop him doing a runner, but then he told him about his father knowing full well he'd bolt, so even that theory is flawed.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

if R+L=J is true, Varys already knows about it; the letter is not about Jon imho

[wolfmaid7]

if R+L=J is true, Varys already knows about it; the letter is not about Jon imho

Ok How ? I've heard others speculate that Varys may know because he was 'master of whispers" but that is not an answer. You said in your opinion he knew,what is your opinion based on? Factually speaking of-course?

[Brindled]

Now for my crack pot theory. If Eddard did write a letter to Jon at the wall. Who would have been his point of contact,if say Mormont got it would he keep that knowledge from Jon until he was ready. I recall this dialogue

“King,” the bird said again.

“I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.”

“The realm has three kings already, and that’s two too many for my liking.” Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

I may be wrong in my deduction but did the raven's eyes never leave Jon or did Mormont's eyes never leave Jon? if it was Mormont what would be the reason for that little tidbit by GRRM. Unless we the readers are to infer that Mormont has some info about Jon.Mormont can be seen as a mentor to Jon and certain things he said to Jon made me think. Craster's keep- I'll look for the exact part- when Jon didn't follow some order- can't remember which. But here's the dialouge to that effect.

Mormont:

Do you want to lead someday?”

Jon “yes".

Mormont: “Then learn how to follow.”

Some may say grooming for command of the NW but again maybe Mormont knew something and was just preparing Jon.

It's a crackpot i know awww i hate what this world does to the mind :bang:

I believe context points to "his eyes" being Mormont's. If Martin were referring to the bird he would/should use "its eyes."

It's a very interesting possibility and one I had not considered.

However, could Ned have been trying to warn Rob to not attack and concede also?

I'm currently about to start my first reread. So, maybe I'll glean more after doing that.

I just wondered, because I can't quite remember, whether Ned even knew his son was making his way towards KL with a host or not.

[wolfmaid7]

if R+L=J is true, Varys already knows about it; the letter is not about Jon imho

Mormont was a sworn man of the Watch and believed in its values. He wouldn't care if Jon was Stark, Targaryen or bastard, as long as he served the Watch. If he did withhold the info it would be to stop him doing a runner, but then he told him about his father knowing full well he'd bolt, so even that theory is flawed.

Mormont was a sworn man of the Watch and believed in its values. He wouldn't care if Jon was Stark, Targaryen or bastard, as long as he served the Watch. If he did withhold the info it would be to stop him doing a runner, but then he told him about his father knowing full well he'd bolt, so even that theory is flawed.

Yet even though he believed in its values there were moments he ignored certain principles of the vows.How many men he knew of that broke the vow of chastity and he turned the other way.The night Jon ran off,Mormont said if every man that ran away for the night was beheaded, only scarecrows or something would guard the walls. My point is that Mormont had the wisdom to allow certain " bending" of the rules because it would be hurtful to do otherwise.

Who is to say he wouldn't choose to keep an intimate letter from Eddard to Jon a secret, because the Watch needed him, not because he was a Targ or Stark but because as Measter Aemon said in ADWD " Mormont saw potential in Jon". "He's grooming you for command" Sam Tarly or " if you want to lead,then know how to follow". Mormont. In the long winter that is approaching Mormont would know that The Watch would need a capable leader.

"but then he told him about his father knowing full well he'd bolt, so even that theory is flawed." But yet he knew that not Jon's honor but his friends would bring him back. If your saying Mormont knew Jon would bolt, then it's safe to say Mormont knew Jon's friends would not allow him to run.

I'm playing the Devil's advocate here! Eddard may or may not have written a lette,r i'm asking if he did what would be the implications? What could be its contents?

We know from reading the books what damages letters can cause.