431 replies to this topic

[Summer is Ending]

It sounds more like Tyrion talking to the Old Bear.

“You are a young man, Tyrion,” Mormont said. “How many winters have you seen?”

He shrugged. “Eight, nine. I misremember.”

“And all of them short.”

“As you say, my lord.” He had been born in the dead of winter, a terrible cruel one that the maesters said had lasted near three years, but Tyrion’s earliest memories were of spring.

[DaveSumm]

This came up in the app discussion, but doesn't really have anything to do with it anymore; I'm still trying to get my head round Roose Bolton's movements during aGot/aCoK. After being defeated by Tywin east of the river, he retreats to "the mouth of the causeway" (which the wiki interprets as Moat Cailin). If this is true, why did he go back so far north, only to turn around and head to the Ford? This is the only window in which he could have married Fat Walda, so he must have done (I assume marriages have to be performed face to face in Westeros and couldn't have simply been 'agreed' to have happened by raven), but I don't really follow the reasoning. I'm not 100% on the time scales involved but it's not long into Clash that we hear of him holding the ford, so I imagine he would pretty much have to go straight back to Moat Cailin, straight to the Twins, and straight to the Ford. Given that Tywin immediately heads south after the battle, I don't see the need to regroup so far north. The Twins would surely suffice as a suitable place to regroup and regain strength, but the chapter in aGoT separately lists the people at the Twins and those at "the mouth of the causeway" (from Catelyn's last chapter in aGoT in which Robb is crowned King in the North):

Roose Bolton had reformed the battered remnants of their other host at the mouth of the causeway. Ser Helman Tallhart and Walder Frey still held the Twins. Lord Tywin's army had crossed the Trident, and was making for Harrenhal.

[Scarlet Seastar]

Could Robb be still alive-in Raynald Westerling's skin?
I just looked it up on the wiki and it says that he[Raynald] fell into the river after being hit by crossbows and releasing Grey Wind.
If skinchangers can enter the skin of anyone and anything, could Robb have entered Raynald after Grey Wind died and jumped into the river to save himself? Or is it just my wishful thinking?

[Summer is Ending]

DaveSumm, on 08 December 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

This came up in the app discussion, but doesn't really have anything to do with it anymore; I'm still trying to get my head round Roose Bolton's movements during aGot/aCoK. After being defeated by Tywin east of the river, he retreats to "the mouth of the causeway" (which the wiki interprets as Moat Cailin). If this is true, why did he go back so far north, only to turn around and head to the Ford? This is the only window in which he could have married Fat Walda, so he must have done (I assume marriages have to be performed face to face in Westeros and couldn't have simply been 'agreed' to have happened by raven), but I don't really follow the reasoning. I'm not 100% on the time scales involved but it's not long into Clash that we hear of him holding the ford, so I imagine he would pretty much have to go straight back to Moat Cailin, straight to the Twins, and straight to the Ford. Given that Tywin immediately heads south after the battle, I don't see the need to regroup so far north. The Twins would surely suffice as a suitable place to regroup and regain strength, but the chapter in aGoT separately lists the people at the Twins and those at "the mouth of the causeway" (from Catelyn's last chapter in aGoT in which Robb is crowned King in the North):

Roose Bolton had reformed the battered remnants of their other host at the mouth of the causeway. Ser Helman Tallhart and Walder Frey still held the Twins. Lord Tywin's army had crossed the Trident, and was making for Harrenhal.

I don't think we can assume it was necessarily that far back north. We don't know where the battle took place. I suppose the new map book doesn't shed any information on where the battle of Green Fork took place any map owners? Otherwise the only geographic reference was the northmen coming over the hills at the beginning. What we do know is that it tooks days of forced marches for Tywin simply to get back to his original camp at the crossroads so it's reasonable he went pretty far north to begin with.

After the hardships of the long relentless drive south, the prospect of even a single night in an inn had cheered Tyrion mightily … though he rather wished it had not been this inn again, with all its memories. His father had set a grueling pace, and it had taken its toll. Men wounded in the battle kept up as best they could or were abandoned to fend for themselves. Every morning they left a few more by the roadside, men who went to sleep never to wake. Every afternoon a few more collapsed along the way. And every evening a few more deserted, stealing off into the dusk. Tyrion had been half-tempted to go with them.

He had been upstairs, enjoying the comfort of a featherbed and the warmth of Shae’s body beside him, when his squire had woken him to say that a rider had arrived with dire news of Riverrun. So it had all been for nothing. The rush south, the endless forced marches, the bodies left beside the road … all for naught. Robb Stark had reached Riverrun days and days ago.


Why the causeway instead of the Twins though? Everyone has at least come to accept that the Roose had a horrible battle plan and the army was shattered. That the northerners didn't suffer even worse casualties was due to Tywin getting intel on the northern calvarly and what Robb was up to rather than some brilliant retreat by Bolton. Otherwise he'd have had cavalry pursuing and riding down the northmen for days. They probably wanted to stay in the foothills and rugged country rather than going down to the low lying flatlands to try to avoid that. That would be my guess anyways.

[FittleLinger]

Scarlet Seastar, on 08 December 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

Could Robb be still alive-in Raynald Westerling's skin?
I just looked it up on the wiki and it says that he[Raynald] fell into the river after being hit by crossbows and releasing Grey Wind.
If skinchangers can enter the skin of anyone and anything, could Robb have entered Raynald after Grey Wind died and jumped into the river to save himself? Or is it just my wishful thinking?

No.


It would be terrible writing, just terrible.
And warging people is not easy.

But more importantly - terrible writing. Horrible.

[Summer is Ending]

Quote

E-Ro
I guess, but what about when Jaime cuts down like ten guys at the ww as they try to capture him? Those men were the best of Robb's castle born trained and equipped with the best stuff money can buy. Yet Jaime cuts them down like nothing, he leaves his sword in karstarks head was karstarks not wearing a helmet? How is it possible to cut down so many men in plate just like that?

The other topic was locked but I'm wondering where this idea of Kingslayer cutting down ten men comes from? As far as I know he cuts down three lordling boys. Am I missing something? Well we don't know how old the Karstark boys were but Daryn Hornwood sounds around the same age as Robb considering he was betrothed to Alys Karstark.

[DaveSumm]

Summer is Ending, on 08 December 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

Why the causeway instead of the Twins though? Everyone has at least come to accept that the Roose had a horrible battle plan and the army was shattered. That the northerners didn't suffer even worse casualties was due to Tywin getting intel on the northern calvarly and what Robb was up to rather than some brilliant retreat by Bolton. Otherwise he'd have had cavalry pursuing and riding down the northmen for days. They probably wanted to stay in the foothills and rugged country rather than going down to the low lying flatlands to try to avoid that. That would be my guess anyways.

But we're still left with two possibilities: either he regrouped south of the Twins, in which case when did he marry Walda, or it was north of the Twins in which case why didn't he stop there instead?

I can only assume it was south, but then afterward he was either ordered or voluntarily went further on to the Twins, then got ordered down to hold the Ford.

ETA: No, the LoIaF doesn't show any battle locations.

Edited by DaveSumm, 08 December 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[Summer is Ending]

DaveSumm, on 08 December 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

But we're still left with two possibilities: either he regrouped south of the Twins, in which case when did he marry Walda, or it was north of the Twins in which case why didn't he stop there instead?

I can only assume it was south, but then afterward he was either ordered or voluntarily went further on to the Twins, then got ordered down to hold the Ford.

ETA: No, the LoIaF doesn't show any battle locations.

The causeway is north of the Twins and like I said, my guess would be the northmen would want to stay in rugged country that would hinder calvalry pursuit they would expect and would have normally occurred if not for Tywin making his forced march south. This also isn't some orderly retreat with Bolton pulling off some brilliant fallback as it talks of them reforming, it was groups of men running and just trying to get away from the defeat. Little more than every man for himself and northmen would head north.

Another possibility is despite Robb's contradictory order of having Bolton go south to confront Tywin Bolton's primary purpose was to make sure the Lannisters didn't try to move through the Neck. Something they can't do sitting at the Twins.

“The eastern host will be all that stands between Lord Tywin and Winterfell,” he said thoughtfully. “Well, them and whatever few bowmen I leave here at the Moat. So I don’t want someone fearless, do I?”

Edited by Summer is Ending, 08 December 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[booknerd2]

What are the closest known weirwoods to Dorne? The most likely. I am bad with the maps and finer details.

Edited by booknerd2, 08 December 2012 - 03:01 PM.

[Summer is Ending]

booknerd2, on 08 December 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

What are the closest known weirwoods to Dorne? The most likely. I am bad with the maps and finer details.

The one at Storm's End is gone thanks to Stannis. Off the top of my head I'd say the one in the Citadel.

It was cool and dim inside the castle walls. An ancient weirwood filled the yard, as it had since these stones had first been raised. The carved face on its trunk was grown over by the same purple moss that hung heavy from the tree’s pale limbs. Half of the branches seemed dead, but elsewhere a few red leaves still rustled, and it was there the ravens liked to perch.

[wighty]

Is it only thru the weirwood eyes that the greenseers can see? I thought those were just their first eyes.

[Fire Eater]

wighty, on 08 December 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Is it only thru the weirwood eyes that the greenseers can see? I thought those were just their first eyes.

Greenseers can see through the weirwoods' eyes, but as Bloodraven stated, they can see beyond that.

[Apple Martini]

booknerd2, on 08 December 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

What are the closest known weirwoods to Dorne? The most likely. I am bad with the maps and finer details.

Spoiler

If I remember the Arianne WoW chapter details, they find a hidden cave/cache/something of weirwoods in/around the Stormlands.

And of course the Isle of Faces in the Riverlands.

[jarl the climber]

booknerd2, on 08 December 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

What are the closest known weirwoods to Dorne? The most likely. I am bad with the maps and finer details.

Its hard to say, The Daynes trace their history back to the First Men, 10,000 years or so. They could have a heart tree at Starfall but we don't know but like somebody pointed out there is one at the Citadel.

[Foxhound]

There seems to be a contradiction about weirwoods in the south. At one point in Game Cat thinks:

Quote

In the south the last weirwoods had been cut down or burned out a thousand years ago, except on the Isle of Faces where the green men kept their silent watch. Up here it was different. Here every castle had its godswood, and every godswood had its heart tree, and every heart tree its face.

And yet later in Riverrun itself:

Quote

She found Robb beneath the green canopy of leaves, surrounded by tall redwoods and great old elms, kneeling before the heart tree, a slender weirwood with a face more sad than fierce.

And I believe Harrenhal and Storm's End also had weirwoods in their godswood.

Edited by Foxhound, 08 December 2012 - 10:43 PM.

[Summer is Ending]

Casterly Rock as well. And wherever the heck that weirwood is that the BWB are using as a HQ.

Also the one Brienne comes across.

Edited by Summer is Ending, 08 December 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Does anyone know for sure whether Lady Alys Karstark is descended from King (Beyond the Wall) Bael the Bard?

[Fire Eater]

Ruby Chevrolet, on 08 December 2012 - 11:31 PM, said:

Does anyone know for sure whether Lady Alys Karstark is descended from King (Beyond the Wall) Bael the Bard?

I don't think Alys is descended from Bael the Bard. The Karstarks are descended from younger son, Karlon Stark, before the Starks went from Kings of Winter to the Lords of Winterfell.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Fire Eater, on 08 December 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

I don't think Alys is descended from Bael the Bard. The Karstarks are descended from younger son, Karlon Stark, before the Starks went from Kings of Winter to the Lords of Winterfell.

Thank you.  This is what I can't figure out.  The Karstarks do descend from a Stark who was King in the North.  I don't know if they broke off from the main Stark line before or after Bael arrived.  Was the father of Bael's mistress a King or a Lord?

Edited by Ruby Chevrolet, 09 December 2012 - 12:00 AM.

[Fire Eater]

Ruby Chevrolet, on 08 December 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

Thank you.  This is what I can't figure out.  The Karstarks do descend from a Stark who was King in the North.  I don't know if they broke off from the main Stark line before or after Bael arrived.  Was the father of Bael's mistress a King or a Lord?

She was the daughter of Lord Brandon Stark, according to Ygritte.

Edited by Fire Eater, 09 December 2012 - 12:05 AM.