21 replies to this topic

[total1402]

In an excerpt Martin read for Tyrion, Mormont specifically runs in and say there is a fleet with Kraken sails and dragon banners. I thought this was an odd thing for Mr Ironborn to do; but I let it go. When I was re-reading ADWD though, theres a very odd section. After getting Moqorro, Victarion mentions how he couldn't replace his old red robes since the Iron Fleet had no red cloth, all of its banners were black and gold; hence Moqorro has to wear Greyjoy colours for his clothing. This is quite a long paragraph. As you know, house targ colours are a red dragon on a black background. So, is this still Victarion? Is this Crows Eye with another fleet who has beaten him to the punch?

p339 ADWD part 2

"The sorcerer priest was garbed in black, but for a hint of golden thread at collar, cuffs, and hem. There was no red cloth aboard the iron victory, but it was not meet that Moqorro go about in the salt-stained rags he had been wearing then the Vole fished him from the sea, so Victarion had commanded Tom Tidewood to sew new robes for him from whatever was at hand, and had even donated some of his own tunics for the purpose. Of black and gold those were, the arms of House Greyjoyshowed a golden kraken on a black field and the banners andsails of their ships displayed the same. The crimson and scarlet robes of thered priests were alien to the Ironborn, but Victarion had hoped his men might accept Moqorro more easily once clad in Greyjoy colours."

That really emphasises how much they struggled to find any red and indeed there is none on Victarions flagship. I'd say this was jsut oversight on Martins part if it weren't for the fact that he seems to spend a lot of words telling us Moqorro had to wear black because there was no red. Not what you would expect if they had enough dragon banners for all the Iron Fleet.

Unless of course Victarion sewed some gold dragons on black banners. Perhaps as he grew more obsessive and sentimental about taking Daenerys?

Edited by total1402, 06 December 2012 - 11:03 AM.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

There are about 90 other ships beside the Iron Victory, some captured long after Moquorro was fished out. And banners could be sewn of sailcloth as well, but that would be terrible to wear.

[The Drunkard]

Other ships in the fleet, other ships he might've 'claimed' on the way to Slaver's Bay, maybe he had some dye. I don't think it's too big a deal, really.

Edited by The Drunkard, 06 December 2012 - 11:17 AM.

[ServantOnIce]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 06 December 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

There are about 90 other ships beside the Iron Victory, some captured long after Moquorro was fished out. And banners could be sewn of sailcloth as well, but that would be terrible to wear.

This.  ADWD talks about ships they have raided with good after he fished Moqorro out. The Dragon banners were to show Queen Dany that they were loyal to her cause.  He is the, "Iron Suitor."

[total1402]

The Drunkard, on 06 December 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

Other ships in the fleet, other ships he might've 'claimed' on the way to Slaver's Bay, maybe he had some dye. I don't think it's too big a deal, really.

I'd prefer if it were Vic myself since Euron showing up is silly. But, the paragraph just seems to lay a lot of stress on the absence of red either for clothing or for banners. A later chapter having the whole Iron Fleet raise dragon banners seems odd. Especially since Vic was meant to be on the cusp of entering Mereens bay when ADWD ends. He doesn't mention such things beforehand.

[RoamingRonin]

Is this an excerpt from the Winds of Winter? Like a spoiler ( ._.)?

[total1402]

RoamingRonin, on 06 December 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Is this an excerpt from the Winds of Winter? Like a spoiler ( ._.)?

Not really. The quoted bit is from A Dance with dragons. The excerpt I refer to is a paraphrase of somebodies relation of a WoW reading yes. But it doesn't tell anymore information than was lready known. Indeed this is material most likely cut from ADWD. All you learn is that Vic enters slavers bay and Tyrion goes WTF. So not a spoiler in any sense of the term.

[sarah.jenice]

Since Victarion definitely wants to prove his loyalty to Dany, I think there could be several explanations as to how he made dragon banners, and a lot of people have already offered some good possibilities.

total1402, on 06 December 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

p339 ADWD part 2
"The sorcerer priest was garbed in black, but for a hint of golden thread at collar, cuffs, and hem. There was no red cloth aboard the iron victory, but it was not meet that Moqorro go about in the salt-stained rags he had been wearing then the Vole fished him from the sea, so Victarion had commanded Tom Tidewood to sew new robes for him from whatever was at hand, and had even donated some of his own tunics for the purpose."

While it says they made Moqorro black and gold robes because they didn't have any new red fabric, it does reference Moqorro's salt-stained rags he had been wearing when found. These rags were red, and even if they were not salvageable as clothing, they might have yielded enough fabric to produce some red dragons to sew on the black banners.

The Drunkard, on 06 December 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

Other ships in the fleet, other ships he might've 'claimed' on the way to Slaver's Bay, maybe he had some dye. I don't think it's too big a deal, really.

This sounds pretty plausible. They did gain quite a few ships along the way that could have had red fabric or dye.

total1402, on 06 December 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

I'd prefer if it were Vic myself since Euron showing up is silly. But, the paragraph just seems to lay a lot of stress on the absence of red either for clothing or for banners. A later chapter having the whole Iron Fleet raise dragon banners seems odd. Especially since Vic was meant to be on the cusp of entering Mereens bay when ADWD ends. He doesn't mention such things beforehand.

I think this may be one of those details that George RR Martin won't take the time to fully explain and will hope we just come to our own conclusions like some of the ones brought up. I know we like to put a lot of thoughts into the books during our long wait.

On Euron, while I don't think he is the one who has raised the dragon banners outside of Meereen, I have always thought he somehow found a way to tag along on Vic's mission. I can't see him sending Vic off to woo Dany and have the opportunity to steal what Euron wants for himself. I also think that Euron is the true master of the dragon horn. Moqorro says the dragons will only come to the master who has claimed the horn with fire and blood, and I can't think of any way Vic could have done that. When the horn is blown, if the dragons respond to any master, I think it will be Euron and that is my main reasoning on why he is there. If Moqorro wouldn't have landed with Vic, he would have blown the horn himself and died so why wouldn't Euron be in the wings waiting to swoop in and claim the dragons once his brother is dead for blowing the horn.

Sorry to get off topic, OP!

[DaveSnow House Stark]

Any consideration to the thought that there is no red fabric because the used all they had to make the banners already? The banners could have been made and stowed on the ships. Just a thought, but doesn't seem to far out there.

[Lady Pounce of Whiskerrun]

DaveSnow House Stark, on 06 December 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Any consideration to the thought that there is no red fabric because the used all they had to make the banners already? The banners could have been made and stowed on the ships. Just a thought, but doesn't seem to far out there.

I like this suggestion. I have a hard time imagining sailors of the Iron Fleet sewing on their way to Meereen. Makes more sense if thralls prepared the banners for them before they set sail.

[Angalin]

<mod>
Info from TWoW chapter readings stays in the appropriate subforum or should be hidden using spoiler tags.  As this thread is based on a spoiler from a chapter reading, I'm moving it to the TWoW subforum.
</mod>

[family duty Hodor]

Well red is the easiest color to procure for an Iron Islander with a temper....

[Tyryan Lannister]

family duty Hodor, on 06 December 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Well red is the easiest color to procure for an Iron Islander with a temper....

not necessarily... if all they have is black cloth to dye in their opponents blood, red won't show to well

[kingofashes]

hey all first time post.

i was actually thinking about this a while a go and thought i had an answer and some evidence of littlefinger and crowseye working together. Then I realized how stupid that was as red dye isnt so hard to find. But since reading this thread and thinking about the quotes where the lack of red dye and fabric is noted I thought i would run my theory by here. Bare in mind it's very much a longshot, a slim chance and lacking in any serious evidence.

But do you all remember when Petyr asks Cercei for the old targaryen tapestries and banners that used to hang in kings landing. What if the reason he asked for them was to give to Euron?

it does seem crazy when i think about it though as surely the ironborn would be able to find some banners of their own... its just an idea i had obviously theres not much to go on i just wonderd what other people would think to it
ie

[kingofashes]

but it would also explain why Petyr knows about Dany (his quote to Sansa about the war of the two/three queens cant remember if it was two or three)

there was talk about petyr knowing about young griff ect and wanting to decorate his castles with targ banners or give them as a gift to him. but what if it is Dany and the link between Dany and Petyr isnt Varys or ilyrio(sp?) who wouldnt work with him anyway but the link between Dany and Petyr is Euron. Euron is exactly the type of character littlefinger would have no problem secretly working with. I say secret cause if he is trying to win the north then he cant be seen working with the iron born

[ab aeterno]

kingofashes, on 08 December 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

but it would also explain why Petyr knows about Dany (his quote to Sansa about the war of the two/three queens cant remember if it was two or three)

there was talk about petyr knowing about young griff ect and wanting to decorate his castles with targ banners or give them as a gift to him. but what if it is Dany and the link between Dany and Petyr isnt Varys or ilyrio(sp?) who wouldnt work with him anyway but the link between Dany and Petyr is Euron. Euron is exactly the type of character littlefinger would have no problem secretly working with. I say secret cause if he is trying to win the north then he cant be seen working with the iron born

I think more or less everyone who was in KL knows about Dany now. The rumors have been spreading for quite some time.

[kingofashes]

Thats true but when did Petyr ask for the tapestries? before he left for the vale? i was pretty sure only the small council and a few others knew about and didnt see her as a current threat especially since her khalasar was split up. Does anyone really know how much of a threat she is know?

[total1402]

kingofashes, on 09 December 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

Thats true but when did Petyr ask for the tapestries? before he left for the vale? i was pretty sure only the small council and a few others knew about and didnt see her as a current threat especially since her khalasar was split up. Does anyone really know how much of a threat she is know?

Of the main players, only Pycelle and the small council knew. Cersei doesn't know. Stannis doesn't know. In fact with Pycelle and Kevin dead it is perfectly possible that the Tyrells won't tell Cersei if she is released. The Ironborn know, House Martell know. Aside from that the rumours seem to be only at the bottom rung of society and not believed to be true by the high lords.

[kingofashes]

thats what i thought, it was the poster before me that thinks everyone in KL now knows about Dany. Apart from the rumours amongst the smallfolk i was thinking about lords and the royal family

[ab aeterno]

kingofashes, on 10 December 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

thats what i thought, it was the poster before me that thinks everyone in KL now knows about Dany. Apart from the rumours amongst the smallfolk i was thinking about lords and the royal family

I meant that everyone who is particularly important knows about Dany. i.e. the Small Council, which LF is/was on.