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The Great Northern Conspiracy, Reexamined


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#41 Apple Martini

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:02 AM

Apple, I just want to say bless your soul for making this uplifting thread. I almost don't want to read more, lest someone comes in to joylessly contradict it.


We'll just sing The Night That Ended until we drown them out. /cool.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />

... If only we knew how it went. /blushing.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blushing:' />

#42 Sworn Shield

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:07 AM

I find the idea that the North would ever get truly behind Stannis to be laughable...People will not forget about Stannis and Mel forcing the wildlings to burn weir wood branches upon being allowed through the Wall. As long as Mel is by his side, there's no chance the North ever follows him.


If the Northerners betray Stannis it will be one hell of a kick in the teeth, Stannis is the king who saved the North and the Wall.

Spoiler


Stannis follows the Red God as he sees power to be had in following Mellisandre and R'hollor, for instance the power to kill Renly when he was protected by all the swords of the Reach. However if Stannis were to see the Old Gods had power (Bran and Bloodraven) would that possibly change what he believes in. Furthermore Stannis and Jon have quite an interesting relationship is it possible he would bend the knee to Jon. I know it is said everywhere Stannis does not bend, but when GRRM writes it so often I kinda half expect Stannis will bend the knee in some shocking moment.

Edited by Sworn Shield, 07 December 2012 - 02:11 AM.


#43 Apple Martini

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:10 AM

Also, I feel compelled to add that all of Jon's advice to Stannis — which people to approach, which places to avoid, which places to hit first, how to get around, which families align with whom, etc. — just compounds to show that hey, the kid knows his shit and would probably be a very good King in the North.

Now, anyone who knows me knows that I love Stannis. But without Jon's advice, Stannis would have marched to the Dreadfort, and probably would've gotten obliterated and/or walked into a trap. Without Jon's advice, Stannis doesn't get the mountain clans, and doesn't relieve Deepwood Motte.

Without Jon's advice, Stannis is, as we say in the motherland, gefickt.

Edited by Apple Martini, 07 December 2012 - 02:11 AM.


#44 Head of The Ned

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:13 AM

Ehhhhh I don't see any hint in Jon's POV that he knows. This isn't like Ned's where it's clear there's some compartmentalization going on. Jon plain doesn't know.


So... are you saying that he knows nothing?

#45 Apple Martini

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:14 AM

So... are you saying that he knows nothing?


What you did there, I see it. /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />

You guys, I'm really feeling the love here. Which of course means that sooner or later someone's going to come in to piss in the Cheerios.

#46 Sworn Shield

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:17 AM

Well Jon quite possibly might be dead /crying.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crying:' /> , but don't worry he'll get better.

Edited by Sworn Shield, 07 December 2012 - 02:18 AM.


#47 Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:18 AM

Well Jon quite possibly might be dead /crying.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crying:' /> .


The boy is dead. Not the man.

#48 Apple Martini

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:21 AM

The boy is dead. Not the man.


Or, as Butters posited, Jon Snow is dead, but not Jon Stark.

#49 butterbumps!

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:26 AM

What you did there, I see it. /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />

You guys, I'm really feeling the love here. Which of course means that sooner or later someone's going to come in to piss in the Cheerios.


Just rend their sails yourself preemptively or something to get it out of the way. You know, like "Not everyone in the world secretly loves the Starks, etc etc. Jon Snow is the most boring and contrived character in the history of the written word, etc etc. If this is true then there will be nothing in Jon's arc that is not a plot gift, etc etc ​Given the chance, Roose and Ramsay may have been good for the Watch and the North as a whole, etc etc. Bowen Marsh is a hero, and so forth."

#50 Sworn Shield

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:26 AM

Could there be some technicality where by if Jon dies briefly say his heart stops, Bowen Marsh says 'and now his watch ends'. However Tormund the Blower of Horns gives Jon CPR and revives him, is Jon out of the Night's Watch. It seems like that would be a cheap technicality, but is it a possibility?

#51 Minstral

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:31 AM

Just rend their sails yourself preemptively or something to get it out of the way. You know, like "Not everyone in the world secretly loves the Starks, etc etc. Jon Snow is the most boring and contrived character in the history of the written word, etc etc. If this is true then there will be nothing in Jon's arc that is not a plot gift, etc etc ​Given the chance, Roose and Ramsay may have been good for the Watch and the North as a whole, etc etc. Bowen Marsh is a hero, and so forth."


Not to mention how Cersei painstakingly tries to aid the Watch by ridding the noble entity that it is by sending recruits to remove the vile tyrant.

#52 Apple Martini

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:32 AM

Could there be some technicality where by if Jon dies briefly say his heart stops, Bowen Marsh says 'and now his watch ends'. However Tormund the Blower of Horns gives Jon CPR and revives him, is Jon out of the Night's Watch. It seems like that would be a cheap technicality, but is it a possibility?


Given the "place of death" thing and Varamyr's holy-foreshadowing-Batman prologue (Ghost is "a second life fit for a king"), I've kind of resigned myself to the probability that Jon is going to die, warg into Ghost, but be resurrected in some way, intentionally or not.

My original thinking, if the death-warging happened, was that Jon would warg into Ghost and use the direwolf as a placeholder. Melisandre would use red god magic to resurrect his body, which Jon would then warg back into. So basically a combination of old gods (warging, ice) and red god (red priest, fire). Just another "both ice and fire" motif for him.

Whether that death frees him from the Watch on a technicality, who knows. I'd rather Jon say, "To hell with this, I'm leaving" than try to walk out on a loophole. But that's me.

Edited by Apple Martini, 07 December 2012 - 02:32 AM.


#53 butterbumps!

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:35 AM

Could there be some technicality where by if Jon dies briefly say his heart stops, Bowen Marsh says 'and now his watch ends'. However Tormund the Blower of Horns gives Jon CPR and revives him, is Jon out of the Night's Watch. It seems like that would be a cheap technicality, but is it a possibility?


I'm against the death-clause technicality thing, and one reason is because of the fact that I think saying the vows in that weirwood gives the speaker a form of protection from the Others. I don't want Jon's vows to disappear because of his "Watch Ending," because I really think it's going to be important that he said the vows at that grove in the first place. My suspicion for why Coldhands is different than other wights is because I suspect he said his vows there as opposed to the others who spoke the words in the sept. It's sort of crackpot, but it's one reason-- of many-- why I dislike the death clause technicality.

#54 Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:38 AM

Does anyone have the text of that vision he has where he's wearing 'black ice armor', and theres fire as well? I imagine by the time the chaos of his assasination dies down, his corpse could be frozen. They'd definitely burn him afterwards, and his armor would be frozen, and it was black to start with.

Is this off topic from the conspiracy?

Edited by Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik, 07 December 2012 - 02:39 AM.


#55 Florina Laufeyson

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:40 AM

Oh wow this thread is amazeballs! Im getting the collywobbles. In the good way of course. Keep it coming, guys! Hnngh!

#56 Minstral

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:40 AM

Does anyone have the text of that vision he has where he's wearing 'black ice armor', and theres fire as well? I imagine by the time the chaos of his assasination dies down, his corpse could be frozen. They'd definitely burn him afterwards, and his armor would be frozen, and it was black to start with.

Is this off topic from the conspiracy?


A bit, though it is relevant in interpreting how the north would react if they think all their planning is falling through.

#57 Apple Martini

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:43 AM

Does anyone have the text of that vision he has where he's wearing 'black ice armor', and theres fire as well? I imagine by the time the chaos of his assasination dies down, his corpse could be frozen. They'd definitely burn him afterwards, and his armor would be frozen, and it was black to start with.

Is this off topic from the conspiracy?


Not necessarily off-topic, more of an extension.

This is my thinking — the Night's Watch is Lightbringer. They are the "sword" in the darkness. I think that the obsidian is really a "medium," channeling the power of the Watch brother. I adhere to the theory that only a weirwood-sworn brother wielding obsidian is effective against the Others (not wights, but killing Others). Obsidian is also "frozen fire," or a physical manifestation of "ice and fire," a tangible dualism. So Jon dreaming of being armored in "black ice" (which I interpret to mean obsidian), wielding the burning red sword (Lightbringer) is a symbolic manifestation of him wielding (leading, controlling, etc.) the Night's Watch, while the obsidian is a nod to both its power as a medium (the Watch guys are the weapon here) and its personification of the coexistence of both ice and fire. As I've said before, balance is the goal here, not one side beating the other. Jon is "armored" in a physical manifestation of this balance.

Edited by Apple Martini, 07 December 2012 - 02:45 AM.


#58 Sworn Shield

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:44 AM

I'd rather Jon say, "To hell with this, I'm leaving" than try to walk out on a loophole. But that's me.


I wonder what is the worst crime. To break your oath and leave the Wall or stay at the Wall and leave your sister in the hands of Ramsey Snow. Plus also leave the North in the hands of Ramsey.

#59 Florina Laufeyson

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:45 AM

Whether that death frees him from the Watch on a technicality, who knows. I'd rather Jon say, "To hell with this, I'm leaving" than try to walk out on a loophole. But that's me.

And me. Jon should be able to to say "fuck the police" after all of that. I just...dont want him to be Un'd.

The problem at hand seems to be when everyone gets wind of Jon getting Caesar'd.

#60 Head of The Ned

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:46 AM

Does anyone have the text of that vision he has where he's wearing 'black ice armor', and theres fire as well? I imagine by the time the chaos of his assasination dies down, his corpse could be frozen. They'd definitely burn him afterwards, and his armor would be frozen, and it was black to start with.

Is this off topic from the conspiracy?



“Stand fast,” Jon Snow called. “Throw them back.” He stood atop the Wall, alone. “Flame,” he cried, “feed them flame,” but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

Edited by Head of The Ned, 07 December 2012 - 02:47 AM.