121 replies to this topic

[Black Wolf Smith]

ab aeterno, on 08 December 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

Surely he did technically betray Robb because Robb had released him and he agreed to work with Robb and then went against him? He certainly didn't deserve torture though.

I wrote a post a while back that I wish I knew where it was at, that would be better then this.

Yes and No to betraying Robb. Theon is weak. He did do all he could to have Balon join Robb, but he is too weak to stand up to him( anybody else think that Theon should have killed his father? Could that have raised the him in the eyes of the Ironmen?). After he failed, he tried to be everything and more that his family wanted him to be, but again he couldn't. He couldn't even stand up to a weakened Reek.

[Apple Martini]

Ingelheim, on 08 December 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Nobody deserved all that happened to Theon.

I agree with this. Theon has done some truly terrible things that eventually he'll have to atone for. But this ... no, no one deserves this.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

he deserved worse!

[ab aeterno]

Black Wolf Smith, on 09 December 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

I wrote a post a while back that I wish I knew where it was at, that would be better then this.

Yes and No to betraying Robb. Theon is weak. He did do all he could to have Balon join Robb, but he is too weak to stand up to him( anybody else think that Theon should have killed his father? Could that have raised the him in the eyes of the Ironmen?). After he failed, he tried to be everything and more that his family wanted him to be, but again he couldn't. He couldn't even stand up to a weakened Reek.

But didn't they basically give Theon the ability to stay or go? I realize he is weak, and I wouldn't expect him to do much else, certainly not kill his father, but by going, I would call that a betrayal.

[Beige Lunatics]

If you send a friend on a beer run, and instead of bringing back beer he moves into your house and (as far as you know) kills your little brothers, you've been betrayed.  I don't see how this is ambiguous.  Robb sent Theon to bring the Iron Islands to his cause, and instead Theon assisted his father's rebellion.

As far as whether Theon deserved what he got, he did.  I found myself empathizing with him a few times, but I chalked that up to the three-book separation from his horrific acts in ACoK.  Do people really think, "Oh, he didn't really kill Bran and Rickon, just some two other children we don't care about"?  Children were murdered either by his hand or at his command.  He killed Mikken.  MIKKEN!  Who will arm the young girls of Winterfell now?

Of course, none of that stopped me from writing a song about it all, from Theon's perspective.

[Cruella]

What I find offputting is that "betraying Starks" is seen as bigger crime than killing three innocent people who had nothing to do with it. Siding with his family makes sense, I don't think he owes Starks anything, although I also don't think he had to show initiative in grabbing castle where people he knew all his life lived, including two little boys he knew. Precious Ned would be more or less fair game, but smallfolk at Winterfell had nothing to do with anything.
I think it's easier for readers to empathize with Theon's suffering than suffering he inflicted. It is shown to us, whereas we have to use our imagination to understand gravity of his worst sins.
He wanted to save face. Was afraid to be laughted at. For that, he agreed to kill two little boys and their mother. Imagine what it's like. A woman probably knew these to psychos came to kill her children as well. We know she begged for mercy. The boys probably tried to run away. They grabbed one first, probably, stabbed, maybe it took more than one stab of the sword. A boy was screaming in pain and horror. Perhaps he already saw his mother die, or perhaps she saw her son die. His brother probably saw or heard what happened to his brother, his screams. Tried to run away, but hey, it's Ramsey and Theon. He had no chance. Maybe they "just" strangled him, broke his neck? Both kids and their mother had to die in horror and pain with no idea why. In reality, they died so Theon could look slightly better. Imagine these aren't some random characters but somebody you know. Is it forgivable? In my view, no. I don't see how it's better than Red Wedding, westerosi superstitions aside. At least that did not involve literal children.

Edited by Cruella, 09 December 2012 - 03:01 PM.

[Beige Lunatics]

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at.  It's tempting to brush his really heinous crimes under the rug, because they happened "offscreen".  But the totality of Theon's sins is at least equivalent to what was inflicted upon him.  Ramsay is the devil, and Theon spent a little time in Hell doing penance for his sins.  Murdering children is one of the most horrific things a person can do, and the miller's sons' deaths are no less tragic just because their last name isn't "Stark".  There's also a (remote, but plausible) possibility that the younger one was Theon's own son, unbeknownst to him.  He had been with the miller's wife previously, and he's old enough that he could've fathered a boy who is now four or five years old.

I'm not going to deny that Theon was dealt a lousy hand, what with being considered an outsider by both his natural and foster families.  But you don't go all in with a garbage hand.  Ramsay will call your bluff, and you'll have to pay up.

[Bluesnow]

I will be honest... I never thought anything done to Theon would ever make up for what he's done... but I no longer hateTheon the way I used to because I pity him so much. The problem though isn't whether the reader thinks Theon has had enough... but whether everyone else in the books (Boltons, Northmen, Stannis, Jon... I'm sure this list could go on)- whether they think he's had enough.

Honestly... the man known as Theon is effectively dead.... and I don't think this quote will apply to him:
"What is dead may never die, but rises again harder and stronger"

Edited by Bluesnow, 09 December 2012 - 09:17 PM.

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

Bluesnow, on 09 December 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Honestly... the man known as Theon is effectively dead.... and I don't think this quote will apply to him:
"What is dead may never die, but rises again harder and stronger"

We will know about that in Winds of Winter. Wait and read. But it would be a hell of a twist if Theon could revert this situation. GRRM could surprise us...
what is dead may never die, but rises again harder and stronger is to be seen. Something tells me Theon might still play a role in the book though, maybe an internal fight with Euron even for the command of the ironborn.

[Silvinha]

Like many more have said, I don't think anybody deserves what Theon has been through...
For me he is one of the most complex characters of the series. When I read his chapters I totally get his confusion and how much he's trying to prove himself and even though that doesn't excuse him, I some how can understand his feelings.. Having said that, I agree with everybody who says he's broken beyond repair and the best thing would be for him to die, but before that I would love to see him killing Ramsay and telling the truth about Bran and Rickon

[MCBC]

I would say yes. Theon was a terrible person before Ramsay came into his life. He was a selfish, egotistical, murderer who felt like he was better than everyone else. I would say he got what deserved, not only in torture but in how little he is regarded by everyone as well.

I feel no pity for the guy at all. The people in this series that I feel pity for are the genuinely good people that have been screwed over, killed or ruined because they got caught up in the "game of thrones" that others were playing.

Edited by MCBC, 11 December 2012 - 10:00 PM.

[borwin]

What Theon deserved was a good clean death for treason and murder, not to be tortured by some sick bastard.

[Kate Poem]

He should die by beheading or something similar after Winterfell, now... I don't know. He was tortured, flayed, whipped, starved, he lost some toes and fingers.
I hope his death will be quick and painless. Or he'll find some hope in his ruined personality and begin build himself again.
And he did'nt deserve for Ramsay's "hospitality". NO.

[Cruella]

Quick death is just that, death. Everyone has to die and will die, too. In Westeros in particular, it can be a blessing. I don't see it as adequate punishment for inflicting untold suffering on innocent people. In my view, punisment should fit the crime. Well, his kinda did.
He also killed Mikken, killed his own people, and raped/abused Kira.
At this point, it's time to put him out of his misery, I agree. He suffered a lot. Though I believe he'll play his part in Ironborn storyline somehow, there was foreshadowing and clues in Asha's story.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Cruella, on 09 December 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

He wanted to save face. Was afraid to be laughted at. For that, he agreed to kill two little boys and their mother. Imagine what it's like. A woman probably knew these to psychos came to kill her children as well. We know she begged for mercy. The boys probably tried to run away. They grabbed one first, probably, stabbed, maybe it took more than one stab of the sword. A boy was screaming in pain and horror. Perhaps he already saw his mother die, or perhaps she saw her son die. His brother probably saw or heard what happened to his brother, his screams. Tried to run away, but hey, it's Ramsey and Theon. He had no chance. Maybe they "just" strangled him, broke his neck? Both kids and their mother had to die in horror and pain with no idea why. In reality, they died so Theon could look slightly better. Imagine these aren't some random characters but somebody you know. Is it forgivable? In my view, no. I don't see how it's better than Red Wedding, westerosi superstitions aside. At least that did not involve literal children.

Well said, and valid points, but in this type of society thats what happen to the "small" folks. Theon is high born, and things were expected of him. He tried not to kill any one at WF, but he was weak, and got pushed into by the other Ironmen.

Not making excuses, but we saw what the other Ironmen did at the Sheild Islands. They raped, killed and stole what ever they could. This is what was expected of Theon.

[mcb]

Black Wolf Smith, on 10 December 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Well said, and valid points, but in this type of society thats what happen to the "small" folks.

...if one has the misfortune to live under a Greyjoy, or a Bolton, or a Lannister. I don't imagine, for example, Bob Baratheon (and he was hardly a perfect prince) doing the same thing,  not to mention Ned or Edmure.
Don't make it into "oppressed lower class" thing. Aegon and Rhaenys met the same fate. And do you think Theon would give a shit if his victims had more blue blood in their veins? Judging by his treatment of Beth Cassel, it's highly doubtful.

Quote

Not making excuses, but we saw what the other Ironmen did at the Sheild Islands. They raped, killed and stole what ever they could. This is what was expected of Theon.

"Which one gave the fiercest fight, the babe or the cripple?"

[Daenerys is my queen]

He deserved to be punished definitely but what he went through....no one deserves that. I hope that'll lead him to a redemption arc but I wouldn't be surprised if it led him to insanity instead. Being tortured like that has to take a toll on you psychologically.

[Stark Outlook]

i used to love Theon, he was one of my faves and i think he definitely deserved it after all that happened at winterfell but now i'd say he'd suffered enough.
i remember after the red wedding i wished all of these kinds of atrocities on theon as i held him almost as responsible for it all as the freys but now its all happened it didnt give me the satisfaction i thought it would... maybe because he showed regret and sorrow for his actions in ADwD. I dunno.. but i like Theon again so i hope he dies with some dignity and honor or can at least take Ramsey with him when he does.

[Daenerys is my queen]

Stark Outlook, on 17 December 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

i used to love Theon, he was one of my faves and i think he definitely deserved it after all that happened at winterfell but now i'd say he'd suffered enough.
i remember after the red wedding i wished all of these kinds of atrocities on theon as i held him almost as responsible for it all as the freys but now its all happened it didnt give me the satisfaction i thought it would... maybe because he showed regret and sorrow for his actions in ADwD. I dunno.. but i like Theon again so i hope he dies with some dignity and honor or can at least take Ramsey with him when he does.

Theon responsible for the Red Wedding? How? Just curious.

[ab aeterno]

Daenerys is my queen, on 21 December 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Theon responsible for the Red Wedding? How? Just curious.

The argument could be made that Theon killing (or announcing that he had killed,) Bran and Rickon led to the RW because it was Cat and Robb's grief at this supposed event which led them to release Jaime and sleep with Jeyne respectively.

Edited by ab aeterno, 25 December 2012 - 05:51 PM.