Welcome to Heresy 32, the latest instalment in the long running series (now in its second year) which looks beyond superficial expectations that the Others are evil incarnate; that the Children of the Forest are cuddly tree-huggers; that Bran will learn from them how to defeat the Others; and that Jon, as Azor Ahai, will do the deed, mounted on one of Dany’s amazing dragons, before taking his rightful place on the Iron Throne as Jon Targaryen…
Instead, we’re concerned not with the Game of Thrones, but the Song of Ice and Fire – what Mel refers to as the war that has been fought since time began. Inevitably this means looking at the Starks, the Wall and beyond, and drawing not just on the books themselves but on the real world mythologies, chiefly Celtic but Norse as well, which underpin Martin’s version of the Faerie realms.
As heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot, but we do reckon that the Stark’s role in all of this is a lot darker and more ambiguous than once it seemed. They are after all the Kings of Winter.
If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction. If you’re new, or simply intimidated by the sheer scale of it all and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.
All that we do insist upon, as ever, is that discussion be conducted with a respect for the text, with a respect for the opinions of others, and above all with great good humour.
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Heresy 32
Started by
Black Crow
, Dec 08 2012 11:31 AM
398 replies to this topic
#2
Black Crow
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:35 AM
And again, given we're now so far along, providing a complete set of links is getting a little out of hand, so I'll just, by way of a public service link Heresy 6 with the complete transcript of Old Nan's tales:
Heresy six,
They're invaluable, but do remember that they are SCARY stories. We now know that the Others aint dead and some (well maybe a lot) of the other stuff has been exaggerated as well to make it scarier.
Heresy six,
They're invaluable, but do remember that they are SCARY stories. We now know that the Others aint dead and some (well maybe a lot) of the other stuff has been exaggerated as well to make it scarier.
#3
Little Wing
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Wicked Witch of Whispers
Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:42 AM
At the very end of Heresy 31, I mentioned Tze's post on Patchface and Bloodraven, so here it is.
#4
alienarea
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:03 PM
Little Wing, on 08 December 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:
At the very end of Heresy 31, I mentioned Tze's post on Patchface and Bloodraven, so here it is.
#5
Feather Crystal
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:06 PM
Just caught up with my Heresy 31 reading and have three topics to comment on.
3EC/Mel - for now, I am going to go on the assumption that Bloodraven, and now Bran, are the 3EC. It's just the avatar used when visiting people in their dreams. I do think Bloodraven was messing with Melisandre, or at the very least, was spying on her. We know that because Melisandre saw Bran and Bloodraven in her fires. She thinks they're the champions of the Great Other.
As for Mel only seeing "Snow". The app throws some doubt into the mix, because while the book capitalizes Snow, the app leaves it lower case, (snow). But, I liked Black Crows analysis of Mel's visions and it allows for a comprehensive meaning that makes upper or lower case irrelevant. Just having all the actual snow can refer to both all the snow Stannis finds himself in and it refers to Jon. And if I remember correctly, the massive snows are attributed to the old gods at Winterfell, which are the greenseer/singers. They are likely singing a powerful, magical song of snow.
As for the Wall...I too am under the assumption that the great height was the accumulation of the years as each LC added to the height. The first Wall may not have been that high, even if it was built by giants. The Great Wall of China was built by actual men, after all. So, if the giants were enslaved with magic to build the Wall, it probably was "giant height", and then as the years went by, the "Builders" of the Night's Watch added layers of gravel, ice and snow.
3EC/Mel - for now, I am going to go on the assumption that Bloodraven, and now Bran, are the 3EC. It's just the avatar used when visiting people in their dreams. I do think Bloodraven was messing with Melisandre, or at the very least, was spying on her. We know that because Melisandre saw Bran and Bloodraven in her fires. She thinks they're the champions of the Great Other.
As for Mel only seeing "Snow". The app throws some doubt into the mix, because while the book capitalizes Snow, the app leaves it lower case, (snow). But, I liked Black Crows analysis of Mel's visions and it allows for a comprehensive meaning that makes upper or lower case irrelevant. Just having all the actual snow can refer to both all the snow Stannis finds himself in and it refers to Jon. And if I remember correctly, the massive snows are attributed to the old gods at Winterfell, which are the greenseer/singers. They are likely singing a powerful, magical song of snow.
As for the Wall...I too am under the assumption that the great height was the accumulation of the years as each LC added to the height. The first Wall may not have been that high, even if it was built by giants. The Great Wall of China was built by actual men, after all. So, if the giants were enslaved with magic to build the Wall, it probably was "giant height", and then as the years went by, the "Builders" of the Night's Watch added layers of gravel, ice and snow.
#6
armidil0
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:18 PM
Dang. I was gone for two days because of a final and it's already on 32.
I like that last part. It makes the creation of the Wall a little more realistic. And it explains why the NW has builders other than their castles suck.
Patchface being a spy for Bloodraven is messed up. But I like it. It begs the question of when did BR know about Mel and what does he have in plan for her? Also, is BR in constant contact with Patchface or not? Does he get warged or just being talked to in dreams? There's a lot of problems and questions it raises, but I like the concept.
Feather Crystal, on 08 December 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:
Just caught up with my Heresy 31 reading and have three topics to comment on.
3EC/Mel - for now, I am going to go on the assumption that Bloodraven, and now Bran, are the 3EC. It's just the avatar used when visiting people in their dreams. I do think Bloodraven was messing with Melisandre, or at the very least, was spying on her. We know that because Melisandre saw Bran and Bloodraven in her fires. She thinks they're the champions of the Great Other.
As for Mel only seeing "Snow". The app throws some doubt into the mix, because while the book capitalizes Snow, the app leaves it lower case, (snow). But, I liked Black Crows analysis of Mel's visions and it allows for a comprehensive meaning that makes upper or lower case irrelevant. Just having all the actual snow can refer to both all the snow Stannis finds himself in and it refers to Jon. And if I remember correctly, the massive snows are attributed to the old gods at Winterfell, which are the greenseer/singers. They are likely singing a powerful, magical song of snow.
As for the Wall...I too am under the assumption that the great height was the accumulation of the years as each LC added to the height. The first Wall may not have been that high, even if it was built by giants. The Great Wall of China was built by actual men, after all. So, if the giants were enslaved with magic to build the Wall, it probably was "giant height", and then as the years went by, the "Builders" of the Night's Watch added layers of gravel, ice and snow.
3EC/Mel - for now, I am going to go on the assumption that Bloodraven, and now Bran, are the 3EC. It's just the avatar used when visiting people in their dreams. I do think Bloodraven was messing with Melisandre, or at the very least, was spying on her. We know that because Melisandre saw Bran and Bloodraven in her fires. She thinks they're the champions of the Great Other.
As for Mel only seeing "Snow". The app throws some doubt into the mix, because while the book capitalizes Snow, the app leaves it lower case, (snow). But, I liked Black Crows analysis of Mel's visions and it allows for a comprehensive meaning that makes upper or lower case irrelevant. Just having all the actual snow can refer to both all the snow Stannis finds himself in and it refers to Jon. And if I remember correctly, the massive snows are attributed to the old gods at Winterfell, which are the greenseer/singers. They are likely singing a powerful, magical song of snow.
As for the Wall...I too am under the assumption that the great height was the accumulation of the years as each LC added to the height. The first Wall may not have been that high, even if it was built by giants. The Great Wall of China was built by actual men, after all. So, if the giants were enslaved with magic to build the Wall, it probably was "giant height", and then as the years went by, the "Builders" of the Night's Watch added layers of gravel, ice and snow.
Patchface being a spy for Bloodraven is messed up. But I like it. It begs the question of when did BR know about Mel and what does he have in plan for her? Also, is BR in constant contact with Patchface or not? Does he get warged or just being talked to in dreams? There's a lot of problems and questions it raises, but I like the concept.
Edited by armidil0, 08 December 2012 - 12:25 PM.
#7
Runaway Penguin
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:35 PM
Regarding Wall technology, influence of NW should not be overestimated. Building the wall would be immensely manpower-intensive and NW did not have enough manpower for ages. Though if the stories are true, then NW had 8 millenia - but a lot of work would have to be spent on simple maintenance of the Wall.
All in all, it seems that NW should have set its priorities straight ages ago, and "every LC left the Wall taller" reflects this well. Not the Wall, but the men defending it are the most important thing, NW got too convoluted into its own mythology to do what's necessary - but topic of "NW reform" is a different one
EDIT: Regarding the foundation, one idea using effectively giants (and their mammoths) springs to mind: Use them to run water pumps during the winter...
All in all, it seems that NW should have set its priorities straight ages ago, and "every LC left the Wall taller" reflects this well. Not the Wall, but the men defending it are the most important thing, NW got too convoluted into its own mythology to do what's necessary - but topic of "NW reform" is a different one
EDIT: Regarding the foundation, one idea using effectively giants (and their mammoths) springs to mind: Use them to run water pumps during the winter...
Edited by Runaway Penguin, 08 December 2012 - 12:37 PM.
#8
Sword Of Mid Afternoon
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:05 PM
Hello all... long time no see. Hello UnCat. (((HOBBIT IN <6 DAYS!!!!!)))))
I've not had a chance to delve into the recent threads too deeply... and this may well have been mentioned previously...
I trust everyone has seen the newly-released HBO "Making of..." featurette... describing Season 3, and Season 2's dvd extras... Well if you pay close attention to the section on the storyboard drawings...As with similar such projects, the storyboard artists create thousands of drawings were made of events long past in the ASOIAF lore, and things described by Martin to the hbo folks. Well... if you look at one of the drawings quickly shown, we see a WhiteWalker emerging from the wall. Not from a tunnel through the wall, but from the solid ice of the wall itself.
If that wasn't just some artist's fancy.... it would up-end all of my (some of our) theories & suppositions about CotF using their elemental magic to aid in the building of the wall, and their warding to help defend it ....hence the 'warding' blocking coldhands, and the tales about the wall blocking evil while the NW is 'true'.
It's true i always thought it odd that creatures seemingly 'made' of ice are stymied by an ice wall....
I've not had a chance to delve into the recent threads too deeply... and this may well have been mentioned previously...
I trust everyone has seen the newly-released HBO "Making of..." featurette... describing Season 3, and Season 2's dvd extras... Well if you pay close attention to the section on the storyboard drawings...As with similar such projects, the storyboard artists create thousands of drawings were made of events long past in the ASOIAF lore, and things described by Martin to the hbo folks. Well... if you look at one of the drawings quickly shown, we see a WhiteWalker emerging from the wall. Not from a tunnel through the wall, but from the solid ice of the wall itself.
If that wasn't just some artist's fancy.... it would up-end all of my (some of our) theories & suppositions about CotF using their elemental magic to aid in the building of the wall, and their warding to help defend it ....hence the 'warding' blocking coldhands, and the tales about the wall blocking evil while the NW is 'true'.
It's true i always thought it odd that creatures seemingly 'made' of ice are stymied by an ice wall....
#9
Black Crow
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:27 PM
Har, yes indeedee. We did discuss them with some interest back in Heresy 31, or was it Heresy 30...
The wall is a bit ambiguous though, it doesn't look quite massive enough in its construction to be the Wall. Although Craster's place is portrayed in the books as wooden, I have a strong suspicion that this is the storyboard to accompany:
“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”
Given that we've already seen Craster handing over his son in Season 2, I'm predicting on the strength of this sketch that rather than coming "soon", we're going to see his sons coming straight through the wall while Sam and Gilly leg it out through the door. The direwolf(?) or hellhound coming through the wall is intriguing too, presumably a substitute for dodgy CGI spiders, but if it is a direwolf it makes you wonder what else the Stark kids' pets can do.
The wall is a bit ambiguous though, it doesn't look quite massive enough in its construction to be the Wall. Although Craster's place is portrayed in the books as wooden, I have a strong suspicion that this is the storyboard to accompany:
“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”
Given that we've already seen Craster handing over his son in Season 2, I'm predicting on the strength of this sketch that rather than coming "soon", we're going to see his sons coming straight through the wall while Sam and Gilly leg it out through the door. The direwolf(?) or hellhound coming through the wall is intriguing too, presumably a substitute for dodgy CGI spiders, but if it is a direwolf it makes you wonder what else the Stark kids' pets can do.
#10
Black Crow
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:41 PM
Feather Crystal, on 08 December 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:
As for the Wall...I too am under the assumption that the great height was the accumulation of the years as each LC added to the height. The first Wall may not have been that high, even if it was built by giants. The Great Wall of China was built by actual men, after all. So, if the giants were enslaved with magic to build the Wall, it probably was "giant height", and then as the years went by, the "Builders" of the Night's Watch added layers of gravel, ice and snow.
Part of the trouble with accepting the conventional story of the Wall is the nature of its construction. When Jon is preparing with Ygritte and the rest of the gang to climb the Wall he comments on the massive size of the foundation blocks - remember even allowing for GRRM getting carried away with himself even half of the 700 feet claimed in the books is way above the height of 16-26 feet for the Great wall of China, far less the 10 foot of Hadrian's Wall where GRRM started. (I currently live by the way just about a mile north of it). And then there's the ice itself. As I said in an earlier post its not like hauling stone. Ice this massive will be so cold it will not only burn but strip the skin off anything that touches it let alone move it precisely. Its magic.
Its also worth noting that just before he does a runner at Queenscrown, Jon recalls being told that Bran the Builder used giants to raise Winterfell. Once again we're looking at the Stonehenge syndrome. If its big it "must" have been built by giants.
#11
Tyryan Lannister
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:42 PM
Little Wing, on 08 December 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:
At the very end of Heresy 31, I mentioned Tze's post on Patchface and Bloodraven, so here it is.
hehe... the three aspects of the Morrigan are BR as Crone, Bran as Maiden, Patchface as Mother... hehehe
#12
Little Wing
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:43 PM
Tyryan Lannister, on 08 December 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:
hehe... the three aspects of the Morrigan are BR as Crone, Bran as Maiden, Patchface as Mother... hehehe
#13
Black Crow
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:47 PM
Sword Of Mid Afternoon, on 08 December 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:
Hello all... long time no see. Hello UnCat.
Ah, by the way, welcome back. Its good to see so many "old" faces popping up again.
Aside from the continuing ambiguity over Bloodraven and the three-eyed crow, its interesting that there's apparently nothing on the new app to contradict or undermine the heresies - unlike a lot of the theories that have been floating about in the wider forum.
#14
Little Wing
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Wicked Witch of Whispers
Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:48 PM
Quote
If its big it "must" have been built by giants.
#15
Tyryan Lannister
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:49 PM
Going back to the topic brought up in H31 about the snow storms, it's very possible for the storm to just naturally occur the way it has. There are plenty of times during the winter where my area (south central Wisconsin, USA) will get big snow storms, while the parts of Canada to the north of us (the parts of Ontario Province between Lake Superior and Hudson Bay) are not experiencing snowfall at that time. We also should remember that during most of Storm there is a huge rainstorm happening across the Riverlands (and possibly in the regions of the North... we have no POV there during that time so we don't know for sure) while there isn't anything happening like that at the Wall... if rainstorms can act that way, so too can snowstorms.
#16
Tyryan Lannister
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:51 PM
Black Crow, on 08 December 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:
Ah, by the way, welcome back. Its good to see so many "old" faces popping up again.
Aside from the continuing ambiguity over Bloodraven and the three-eyed crow, its interesting that there's apparently nothing on the new app to contradict or undermine the heresies - unlike a lot of the theories that have been floating about in the wider forum.
Aside from the continuing ambiguity over Bloodraven and the three-eyed crow, its interesting that there's apparently nothing on the new app to contradict or undermine the heresies - unlike a lot of the theories that have been floating about in the wider forum.
It does make me wonder how much Martin's peeps (since Martin claims to not do this himself) check up on these "established" threads (Heresy, RLJ, Sansa Player) just to see how close we've gotten/how far down the cuckoo train we are.
#17
Black Crow
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:04 PM
Tyryan Lannister, on 08 December 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:
Going back to the topic brought up in H31 about the snow storms, it's very possible for the storm to just naturally occur the way it has. There are plenty of times during the winter where my area (south central Wisconsin, USA) will get big snow storms, while the parts of Canada to the north of us (the parts of Ontario Province between Lake Superior and Hudson Bay) are not experiencing snowfall at that time. We also should remember that during most of Storm there is a huge rainstorm happening across the Riverlands (and possibly in the regions of the North... we have no POV there during that time so we don't know for sure) while there isn't anything happening like that at the Wall... if rainstorms can act that way, so too can snowstorms.
Exactly what I was saying about this business of weather from the north never being constant. Its the winds sweeping westwards from Siberia which do it for us, and usually its pretty hit or miss whether the storm passes over, below or above us.
#18
Tyryan Lannister
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:07 PM
Going to be doing a series of related posts, so please keep all of them in mind! I'm breaking them up so it's a little easier for my fellow heretics to pick them apart.
So, going back a few to the relationship between Mance and Bloodraven…
Mance could very easily be Bloodraven’s son. “But Bloodraven was like 70 years old when he left the Wall! He couldn’t have father any children at that point!”
LIES I say… our good ole pall Lord Walder is fathering children in his 90s, and since the Ice preserves, it is quite possible for Bloodraven to have been even more virile at that point than ever Sexster McGee was.
Looking Ahead: Bloodraven as Odin
So, going back a few to the relationship between Mance and Bloodraven…
Mance could very easily be Bloodraven’s son. “But Bloodraven was like 70 years old when he left the Wall! He couldn’t have father any children at that point!”
LIES I say… our good ole pall Lord Walder is fathering children in his 90s, and since the Ice preserves, it is quite possible for Bloodraven to have been even more virile at that point than ever Sexster McGee was.
Looking Ahead: Bloodraven as Odin
#19
Tyryan Lannister
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:16 PM
As has been discussed many a time, Bloodraven-as-Greenseer-tree-man seems to be a mixture of the Morrigan and Odin. We have delved rather deeply into the subsequent analogies between Bloodraven and the people he’s in contact with vs. the Celtic folklore and myths. However, IIRC, we have not delved that deeply into the Odin-Norse myth side. So, let’s do just that.
The Norse myths hold that, during the Ragnarok, Odin will be killed by the monstrous (were)wolf Fenrir. Bloodraven is currently being replaced (seemingly at least) by a greenseer with a strong connection to a wolf, so we could say that Bran is the Fenrir to Bloodraven’s Odin. Put, if we delve a little deeper, we find that Fenrir, in turn, is killed by Odin’s son Vidar, the “wide ruler” and the god of “vengeance”… the one person we know of who would really fit the bill here is
Arya
—she is an instrument of He of Many Faces (death, which really is the “wide ruler”) AND she is very much hung up on getting vengeance for her family
Really don’t want to see this happen (nor do I much see HOW it could happen), but the rabbit hole does break off into this path as an option
LOOKING AHEAD: The main part of this, THOR.
The Norse myths hold that, during the Ragnarok, Odin will be killed by the monstrous (were)wolf Fenrir. Bloodraven is currently being replaced (seemingly at least) by a greenseer with a strong connection to a wolf, so we could say that Bran is the Fenrir to Bloodraven’s Odin. Put, if we delve a little deeper, we find that Fenrir, in turn, is killed by Odin’s son Vidar, the “wide ruler” and the god of “vengeance”… the one person we know of who would really fit the bill here is
Arya
—she is an instrument of He of Many Faces (death, which really is the “wide ruler”) AND she is very much hung up on getting vengeance for her familyReally don’t want to see this happen (nor do I much see HOW it could happen), but the rabbit hole does break off into this path as an option
LOOKING AHEAD: The main part of this, THOR.
#20
Feather Crystal
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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:21 PM
I need a specific keyword to search my electronic version of Dance, as I think there are references to the "gods" making it snow. And I think that's a distinct possibility. All those sleepy, little greenseer singers, singing away for snow.
In MN, we got a light dusting of snow yesterday. Little Wing, I'm envious of your more liberal downfall! I love snow!
In MN, we got a light dusting of snow yesterday. Little Wing, I'm envious of your more liberal downfall! I love snow!
