398 replies to this topic

[Black Crow]

Feather Crystal, on 13 December 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

In appendix for House Arryn says the Arryns are descended from the Kings of Mountain and Vale, one of the oldest and purest lines of Andal nobility.

Which is why its reckoned that if the Arryns' kingdom of the Vale goes back 6,000 years as per the Lyssa's Tears legend, the other Andal kingdoms came later, and given the doubts as to the dating per Hoster Blackwood - ie; 2,000 years ago tops, then the other Andal kingdoms must be correspondingly younger.

[Feather Crystal]

I am an open-minded person, so I'm not going to dig my heels in on any position regarding whether or not the Andals were here before or after the Long Night. So, with that in mind, I would like to explore the origins of the White Walkers and why they didn't seem to be a problem until the Long Night.

How can they say that the Pact endured if the Pact included the Others, which means the Children, the White Walkers, the giants and any other races that I missed?

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Feather Crystal, on 13 December 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

How can they say that the Pact endured if the Pact included the Others, which means the Children, the White Walkers, the giants and any other races that I missed?

There is only the heretical theory that the others are related to the children. Wood Dancers and such. The First Men and COTF were at war, and made peace. No others are in the histories for another 2 thousand years after the pact by my calculations.

[Black Crow]

Two possible answers spring to mind. One is that somebody did something that provoked them, the other is that we know the children are very long-lived so its conceivable that if the Wild Hunt only comes out to play (beyond the Wall?) every few thousand years, the First Men tooled up between visits and were left out in the open when the Children dived for cover, so to speak.

At this stage however we know so little about them that its impossible to say.

[Black Crow]

There is another possibility that occurs to me, if the Wall does precede the Long Night, and that is that they've always been around, just as we reckon that contrary to popular belief they have always been around beyond the Wall, collecting their tithe to Hell and nobbling benighted travellers in the woods, and its only after the Pact that the First Men pushed beyond the Wall and then Winter came and with it the Others/Sidhe, who so far had played no part in the wars against the First Men simply because they weren't fought in Winter.

[Feather Crystal]

We have to assume, then, that the White Walkers were not included in the Pact.

LC Mormont states that the Long Night happened 8000 years ago. So, for 4000 years the First Men lived in Westeros without a significant White Walker attack. If the Andals truly came around 6000 years ago, that would put the date of the beginning of the Pact at 10,000 years ago, 2000 years before the Long Night. You think GRRM is going to reveal that the White Walkers have a great wild hunt every 2000 years. If that's true, they should have been attacked a first time 2000 years before the Long Night. So, I don't think he's going to have something similar to that. But, something triggered the Long Night, because GRRM has said that the extended seasons are magical.

[Feather Crystal]

Both the building of the Wall and the Long Night are said to have occurred 8000 years ago.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Feather Crystal, on 13 December 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

We have to assume, then, that the White Walkers were not included in the Pact.

LC Mormont states that the Long Night happened 8000 years ago. So, for 4000 years the First Men lived in Westeros without a significant White Walker attack. If the Andals truly came around 6000 years ago, that would put the date of the beginning of the Pact at 10,000 years ago, 2000 years before the Long Night. You think GRRM is going to reveal that the White Walkers have a great wild hunt every 2000 years. If that's true, they should have been attacked a first time 2000 years before the Long Night. So, I don't think he's going to have something similar to that. But, something triggered the Long Night, because GRRM has said that the extended seasons are magical.

I agree with the dates you've got.

I remarked a few pages back that it's interesting that there is a quote that no southron army had passed Moat Caillin in 10,000 years. Coincidentally, on the same timeline this is went the Pact was made. So until 10,000 there were no First Men in the north(That's what I'm getting out of that quote). 2,000 years of migration later and the first night comes. The White Walkers may just have reacted to first men migration past a certain point, either pre-emptively or in reaction to attacks from the first men.

This would make sense in respect to the fist of the first men too. I could see the white walkers getting very pissy if men were suddenly manning an ancient fort used to fight against them. Even moreso if whatever peace was achieved by agreeing to stay south of the wall and abandon those strongholds.

Edited by Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik, 13 December 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[Black Crow]

Well presumably we'll find out in the Winds of Winter, but the point I was making in #385 above was that the establishment of the 100 kingdoms didn't happen overnight, even after the Pact was signed (!) it probably took many hundreds of years for the First Men to settle as far north as the Frostfangs. As I say, there's no mention of Winter prior to the Long Night and as the Others/Sidhe are tied to the cold, they obviously weren't around, at least in their present form when the Pact was signed.

As to the Wall there's no doubt that in the popular mind in Westeros it was raised up after the Long Night and therefore if the Long Night was 8,000 years ago, then so too must be the Wall. It may well be so, I've got an open mind on this, but given the way that GRRM has refused to let us know anything about whether and how the Others/Sidhe were defeated and when and by who the Wall was built, the possibility must exist that it is older and that perhaps the Long Night was triggered by First Men moving north into the realm of Ice.

[Black Crow]

And with that I'll give you fair warning its getting dangerously close to my bed-time, so after the fastest moving thread in the whole history of the Heresy channel, I'll be launching Heresy 33 in about 10 minutes.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Black Crow, on 13 December 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

And with that I'll give you fair warning its getting dangerously close to my bed-time, so after the fastest moving thread in the whole history of the Heresy channel, I'll be launching Heresy 33 in about 10 minutes.

Give us an all clear to start posting there. I keep accidentally interrupting your opening posts

[Black Crow]

OK, I'm shutting this one down now. I'll do the OP for 33 and then off to bed, leaving the rest of you to post to your hearts content. If it carries on at the present rate it'll be "Hot" by the time I stumble downstairs again.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Little Wing, on 13 December 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

I wonder what the original gods of the First Men were... Did it say in the books and I've missed it? They took up the Old Gods of the Children, but what did they believe previously?

We have looked at this before and as much as we would like to know there is not anything solid only a few things to consider. Black Crow already mentioned the the fire elements in the Night's Watch vow that has to make us wonder. I've tried looking at house sigils of First Men with fire symbolism but IIRC it was a mixed bag, maybe some in the Iron Islands but I'm not sure now.

Next you can look at the Iron Islands because they are First Men and supposedly the Andals adopted their beliefs instead of the other way around. Then you could wonder about all these gods in Westeros, which could come from many other origins too but who knows. The Drowned God, the Storm God, the Cold God, the Sea God, the Goddess of the Wind, and more I can't remember now but they have some in Essos as well, you also have stories of mortals marrying the gods.

One last thing too, that does not really help at all, is it seems like the First Men ( Starks and Greyjoys ) are described with dark or black eyes and so are the Dothraki and I remember an interesting thread from Bran Vras that discovered it might be possible the First Men come from a horse culture. So in the end no we do not know what the religion of the First Men was but not from lack of trying.

ETA Here is the link to the thread if anyone is interested

Edited by Elaena Targaryen, 13 December 2012 - 05:46 PM.

[Feather Crystal]

Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik, on 13 December 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

I agree with the dates you've got.I remarked a few pages back that it's interesting that there is a quote that no southron army had passed Moat Caillin in 10,000 years. Coincidentally, on the same timeline this is went the Pact was made. So until 10,000 there were no First Men in the north(That's what I'm getting out of that quote). 2,000 years of migration later and the first night comes. The White Walkers may just have reacted to first men migration past a certain point, either pre-emptively or in reaction to attacks from the first men.This would make sense in respect to the fist of the first men too. I could see the white walkers getting very pissy if men were suddenly manning an ancient fort used to fight against them. Even moreso if whatever peace was achieved by agreeing to stay south of the wall and abandon those strongholds.

Very good observation, Gar Weg Wun! I think its a very logical conclusion that if the Pact was 10,000 years ago, and Moat Cailin held off southern invaders 10,000 years ago, makes Moat Cailin the furthest north that the First Men had gotten to by the time the Pact was signed.

It appears that the Isle of Faces in God's Eye would then have been a central location between the established settlements of the First Men and the Children.

Then the story of the Last Hero mentions that he had to go out into the "dead lands", then if he did find the Children at Winterfell, he was venturing far into some previously uncharted land.

Edited for clarity.

Edited by Feather Crystal, 13 December 2012 - 05:42 PM.

[Little Wing]

Elaena Targaryen, on 13 December 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

We have looked at this before and as much as we would like to know there is not anything solid only a few things to consider. Black Crow already mentioned the the fire elements in the Night's Watch vow that has to make us wonder. I've tried looking at house sigils of First Men with fire symbolism but IIRC it was a mixed bag, maybe some in the Iron Islands but I'm not sure now.

Next you can look at the Iron Islands because they are First Men and supposedly the Andals adopted their beliefs instead of the other way around. Then you could wonder about all these gods in Westeros, which could come from many other origins too but who knows. The Drowned God, the Storm God, the Cold God, the Sea God, the Goddess of the Wind, and more I can't remember now but they have some in Essos as well, you also have stories of mortals marrying the gods.

One last thing too, that does not really help at all, is it seems like the First Men ( Starks and Greyjoys ) are described with dark or black eyes and so are the Dothraki and I remember an interesting thread from Bran Vras that discovered it might be possible the First Men come from a horse culture. So in the end no we do not know what the religion of the First Men was but not from lack of trying.

Hm... can the Greyjoys then be the ones holding on to the original First Men branch of religion? Probably not, I mean, we would know about it then

[Elaena Targaryen]

Little Wing, on 13 December 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

Hm... can the Greyjoys then be the ones holding on to the original First Men branch of religion? Probably not, I mean, we would know about it then

Yea, see I think it would be more likely the Greyjoys held on to their peoples religion and other groups or families of First Men held their own mixed bag of different relgions, gods or beliefs but I'm just speculating.

But there is "The First King" and it's said he led the First Men to Westeros so maybe they all were of the same religion, and maybe only those who went to the Iron Islands were apart.

Quote

As he climbed a wide flight of wooden steps to the hall, Reek’s legs began to shake. He had to stop to steady them, staring up at the grassy slopes of the Great Barrow. Some claimed it was the grave of the First King, who had led the First Men to Westeros. Others argued that it must be some King of the Giants who was buried there, to account for its size. A few had even been known to say it was no barrow, just a hill, but if so it was a lonely hill, for most of the barrowlands were flat and windswept.

See how bad I want to know more about the First Men when they went to Westeros?

[Little Wing]

Yeah, maybe the Greyjoys kept what was a branch of a polytheistic probably largely pantheistic worship of the First Men (just speculating here). I'm thinking it was close to nature, the elements, so it wasn't a huge change to worship the Old Gods... the eyes disturbed them because, well, no one wants to be spied upon especially by the gods maybe the fact that they were afraid of trees having eyes could point to their original pantheistic worship, that they believed in nature's powers... I dunno, anyway, we better take it to Heresy 33, as it's already posted

[Black Crow]

As Heresy 33 seems well established, I'd just like to finally wrap this one up by thanking everybody for their contributions both in general and in particular last night durious a furious debate - furious as in tempo - on a substantive topic conducted with good humour and a proper regard for the text. This is what Heresy is really about. Thank you.

[addicted to snow]

Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik, on 13 December 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

I remarked a few pages back that it's interesting that there is a quote that no southron army had passed Moat Caillin in 10,000 years. Coincidentally, on the same timeline this is went the Pact was made.

Doesn't it seem strange that the Barrow-Lands (a huge graveyard) are north of Moat Caillin?

Edited by addicted to snow, 14 December 2012 - 07:54 PM.