The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones Pop! Television Ygritte Figurine
Game of Thrones Pop! Television Ygritte Figurine
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

R'hllor, the Shadow Lands, the Great Other and the Lands of Always Winter


  • Please log in to reply
100 replies to this topic

#1 Angrivarius

Angrivarius

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:14 PM

There are already some threads about similar subjects, but they all focus on special aspects of this topic, such as whether Daenarys will travel through the Shadow Lands to arrive in Westeros or not, or if the others ever conquered all af the known world including Essos etc.
Thats why I opened this thread, to get all the theories, concerning this subject area together.

In the first place I wondered why the worship of R'hllor, a religion about defeating the Othters is practicised in Asshai, a city located exactly on the other side of the world (North/West - East/South). Why do the people of Asshai care and know about the Others and the rising cold, if the Others didn't conquer Essos? The Shadow Lands in the south of Asshai are discribed as an equalence or counterpart of the Lands of Always Winter. The cold, the Others and the Great Other against, fire, dragons and R'hllor on the other hand. According to GRRM there will be no POV taking us to Asshai. When Quaithe prophesies Danaerys "To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east....", further she says "...to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow". Dany refuses to go to Asshai and Quaithe answers that she will find truth there (she confirms Asshai). A prophecy is only concerning the future, not the past. When Dany talks to Quaithe they are in Quarth, but she never went east of Quarth if you take a look on every excisting map of Essos. http://cdn.serietivu...-ed-Essos-3.jpg

Some of you might know the Movie Fire & Ice. Its about the rising cold and its armies, the protagonists flee in the south, where the final battle is fought. Did GRRM had the plan to let the final battle take place in the shadow lands as well and changed his mind later (because of the lack of time etc)?

Another thought leading me to the east is that GRRM has equalences to almost every region or historical forces of our world.
Geographical & historical: Westeros/North America; Essos/Eurasia; Sothoryos/Africa; Valyria/Greece,Minoan Culture (Santorin); free cities/Europe; Dorne/Mexico (salsa food etc); Ghiscar/old Egypt; Dothraki Sea/Russia (mongols, skyths, turks); Slavers Cities/Sumer, Babylon etc. The only missing equalences are China (Yi Ti) and India (Asshai?), the rising powers of our present age. This made me think, that we will meet a completely new force/area later in the books, but GRRM's statement not to go Asshai means the opposite.

What do you think of all the wong (?) prophecies and misleading hints, what is your theory about the equalence between the Land of Allways Winter/the Great Other and the Shadow Lands/R'hllor at the other hand and finally what are your thoughts concerning the resolving of the story?

Edited by Angrivarius, 09 December 2012 - 02:33 PM.


#2 ckal

ckal

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,362 posts

Posted 09 December 2012 - 09:50 PM

The statements by Quaithe are very interesting because if you take it literally (based on the recently released Lands of Ice and Fire map book), that would lead Dany directly to Asshai (if she goes both south and east). But why? Why should she go there and what would happen if she were to actually get there? What importance is that of hers? Is she saying there is a way to get to Westeros and the North by going through Asshai? Do these two continents actually connect on the globe (if you are in Asshai and go Northeast, will you en up somewhere near Northern Westeros like Russia/Alaska?) This is of course, if we are taking that literally.

I really have no idea what GRRM's plans are in regards to concluding this 'storyline' with R'hollor and the Others, never mind actually getting into it.

In regards to GRRM scrapping ideas, it is well known he has made some pretty drastic changes to what he originally intended, especially after ASOS, so who knows what he intends/intended.

Edited by ckal, 09 December 2012 - 09:59 PM.


#3 Free Northman

Free Northman

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,399 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:47 AM

This idea that Ashai connects geographically to the North is really getting tiresome. It is geographically impossible. Even a superficial understanding of the geography of the Ice and Fire world should make that clear.

#4 Angrivarius

Angrivarius

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:38 PM

I agree with you, the distance must be comparable with the distance between the South- and the Northpole, there is no short way from the Shadow Lands to the North. I believe she won't travel to Asshai, but the knowledge (about dragons and the others etc) from Asshai could come to her, maybe Tyrion gets to Asshai or a priest or wise man from Asshai is on his way to her.

One theory I could imagine is that Essos will be connected with Westeros in the north-east through the frosen Shivering Sea, an equalence to the Bering Strait, which was passable in the Ice Age, as well. Imagine Dany with a huge army (including 100.000 Dothraki) on an endless tramp through the vastness of snow! That would be a nice repetition of her walk through the red waste.

But I still wonder why do the people in Asshai worship Azor Ahai?
If he is really the same as the Last Hero, he fought his battles on the other side of the world. That's like if the Aborigenes would have worshiped Abraham Lincoln in the pre-modern age.

Edited by Angrivarius, 10 December 2012 - 02:56 PM.


#5 blablablub

blablablub

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:28 PM

knowledge (about dragons and the others etc) from Asshai could come to her, maybe Tyrion gets to Asshai or a priest or wise man from Asshai is on his way to her.


Well Archmeaster Marwyn "the Mage" is traveling to Meereen to supposedly become Dany's Grand Maester or Maester at least and we do know that he spent a considerably amount of time; I belive 8-10 years, traveling Essos learing and searching for "forbidden" knowledge.

We also know that he, tought MMD the Commen Tongue, among other things and that she spent some time in Asshai.

So it stands to reason that there could/should have been an exchange of knowlegde between MMD and Marwyn.

Or that he himself maybe had been to Asshai in the past.

#6 The Red Pope

The Red Pope

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 738 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:39 AM

I believe she won't travel to Asshai, but the knowledge (about dragons and the others etc) from Asshai could come to her, maybe Tyrion gets to Asshai or a priest or wise man from Asshai is on his way to her.

This seems likely, that Asshai will come to her in form of the red priest Moqorro. He served at the Volantis temple, but we don't know where he originally came from and he seems to know most of the red priests' secrets.
About the origin of the faith of R'hollor we have to keep in mind that the priests speak more of darkness as the enemy than the cold as the wildlings do. It has been hinted that the shadowlands are always dark and that would explain why Asshai is considered the end of the world and it's people worship the light.

#7 SaulGoode9

SaulGoode9

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:25 PM

This idea that Ashai connects geographically to the North is really getting tiresome. It is geographically impossible. Even a superficial understanding of the geography of the Ice and Fire world should make that clear.


It's not impossible. It's far-fetched alright, and would be too long a journey but it's possible they are connected. Could be similar to the way Siberia and Alaska are almost connected.

Take Portugal as Meereen and Arizona as King's Landing. The US/Canada border could be the Wall and Kazakstan is Asshai.

http://i.imgur.com/pkG2Y.png

Edited by SaulGoode9, 12 December 2012 - 03:25 PM.


#8 The Red Pope

The Red Pope

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 738 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:49 PM

It's not impossible. It's far-fetched alright, and would be too long a journey but it's possible they are connected. Could be similar to the way Siberia and Alaska are almost connected.

Take Portugal as Meereen and Arizona as King's Landing. The US/Canada border could be the Wall and Kazakstan is Asshai.

http://i.imgur.com/pkG2Y.png

Since the climate doesn't add up It's saft to assume it's a long journey. Even if you could go east from Asshai and end up in the Reach you'd still have to cross the vast Sunset sea and the Shadowlands full of ghost grass, dragons, masked people and whatnot. It's safer to go the usual way, especially with an entire army.

#9 SaulGoode9

SaulGoode9

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:51 PM

Since the climate doesn't add up It's saft to assume it's a long journey. Even if you could go east from Asshai and end up in the Reach you'd still have to cross the vast Sunset sea and the Shadowlands full of ghost grass, dragons, masked people and whatnot. It's safer to go the usual way, especially with an entire army.


Totally agree. I was just saying that it's not 'impossible' they are connected as Free Northman put it. Of course, it would be probably be certain death to go through Asshai and further east as you said and just going west would definitely be the safer and quicker route.

#10 The Red Pope

The Red Pope

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 738 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:11 PM

Totally agree. I was just saying that it's not 'impossible' they are connected as Free Northman put it. Of course, it would be probably be certain death to go through Asshai and further east as you said and just going west would definitely be the safer and quicker route.

As GRRM himself said when someone tried to rationalize his world "Guys, this is fantasy." to know would ruin some of the mystique which makes the story interesting.

#11 Sam Huxley

Sam Huxley

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 210 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:59 PM

I do believe it's highly probable that the Shadow Lands and Westeros could link together; but if GRRM has said that his character's POV's will not pass through Asshai then it doesn't seem at all likely that Daenerys will pass through that way, scrapping the advice that Quaithe had originally given her about going in the opposite directions. However, looking at some speculative maps, it doesn't seem that if Daenerys was to carry on travelling east towards Westeros that she would have to actually go to Asshai to pass through the Shadow Lands. Depending on how much of the Shadow Lands and the Land of Always Winter that is unmapped, it could be that they do link together, but if there isn't much of those two areas unmapped, then they won't link together at all.


Another thought leading me to the east is that GRRM has equalences to almost every region or historical forces of our world.
Geographical & historical: Valyria/Greece,Minoan Culture (Santorin)


Got to disagree with that; I'd say Atlantis is more of an inspiration for the stronghold of Valyria because they were also an independent island according to history and were at the height of their power before they became nothing over a very short period of time.

#12 Bad Hound!

Bad Hound!

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 403 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:19 PM

Well, I think that GRRM is giving us a clue when he says "it's all fantasy".

We need to understand what "to pass beneath the Shadow" mean. I'm thinking it doesn't necessarily mean going to Asshai. Sure, Asshai is Asshai-by-the-Shadow, but maybe "passing beneath the shadow" means something else.

Another thought leading me to the east is that GRRM has equalences to almost every region or historical forces of our world.
Geographical & historical: Westeros/North America; Essos/Eurasia; Sothoryos/Africa; Valyria/Greece,Minoan Culture (Santorin); free cities/Europe; Dorne/Mexico (salsa food etc); Ghiscar/old Egypt; Dothraki Sea/Russia (mongols, skyths, turks); Slavers Cities/Sumer, Babylon etc. The only missing equalences are China (Yi Ti) and India (Asshai?),


This is your opinion, you read what you want in GRRM's world. Personally, I do not see Westeros as North America at all. I see the lands South of the Neck as Europe (I see Dorne more like Spain), and North of the Neck as Russia. But it's not a one-to-one mapping as the free cities are also indeed in Europe (Italian nation states like Venice), and to me Asshai is more like Japan, Yi-Ti China as you said, Summer Isles Indonesia and Qarth is India. But that's just me.

#13 Bastard of Nightsong

Bastard of Nightsong

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 34 posts

Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:12 PM

Got to disagree with that; I'd say Atlantis is more of an inspiration for the stronghold of Valyria because they were also an independent island according to history and were at the height of their power before they became nothing over a very short period of time.


Many scholars believe the Minoan civilization, and its downfall with the eruption of Thera, was the real-world inspiration for the legends of Atlantis. FWIW.

#14 TheHoodedStranger

TheHoodedStranger

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:47 PM

I think if Dany we're to go to Asshai (which she probably won't) that the Asshai'i would most likely revere Dany because of the dragons. That is if she didn't bring destruction down on them like like she did to the Astapori and other slavers. Bloodmages strike me as slightly fearsome the fat and lazy whip crackers lol.

#15 AelinorTarg

AelinorTarg

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 63 posts

Posted 08 January 2013 - 07:53 AM

GRRM stated that we'll see Asshai through a POV's memories,but Qarth is the easternmost point we'll see in the series. Now,we know that the Shadow Lands are actually north of Asshai. We have Ullthos south of Asshai,but we know nothing about it. I doubt it's linked somehow to Westeros,i'm curious about the lands beyond Mussovy,as Essos goes significantly wider toward its east. Maybe it's a narrow strait beyond Mussovy and TLOAW .

#16 Tourniquet

Tourniquet

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 462 posts

Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:47 PM

'"To pass beneath the shadow" could have many meanings that are unknown to us right now. We obviously think it has to do with Asshai as that has the strongest relation to the term "shadow" in the novels. But it could just as easily mean a real shadow i.e. possibly the Titan of Braavos' shadow, or the shadow of the Wall, or a ship named the Shadow, etc. Maybe she never passes beneath the shadow and never gets to Westeros (fingers crossed).

#17 roycello

roycello

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:07 PM

well, as for the belief in R'hllor in Asshai, it is the same as the belief of the northerners in the old gods who are gods of cold.
they believe partially because they fear it.

#18 DaveSumm

DaveSumm

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,036 posts

Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:08 PM

I swear like 1% of threads here actually belong in this section.

#19 Toccs

Toccs

    The Bastard of Euron's Chamber Pot

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,267 posts

Posted 17 January 2013 - 09:55 PM

In the first place I wondered why the worship of R'hllor, a religion about defeating the Othters is practicised in Asshai, a city located exactly on the other side of the world (North/West - East/South). Why do the people of Asshai care and know about the Others and the rising cold, if the Others didn't conquer Essos?


I think the mistake would be to assume that the R'hllor religion has anything at all to do with defeating the Others or even acknowledging their existence. There is absolutely no evidence of a connection apart from the word "other" which is being used in a different context in both instances.

Melisandre thinks that she has found Azor Ahai the legendary R'hllor hero yet she wasn't the least bit interested in going up north to the Wall, if Davos hadn't read that letter, Mel and Stannis would still be hanging around on Dragonstone.

Also the stories about Azor Ahai have him slaying Dragon's with his flaming sword, not White Walkers and not a mention of snow or winter anywhere.

If I was looking for the "darkness" that is "filled with terrors" that the R'hlloristas talk about, I would start not in the far north at the edge of the world, but in that perpetually dark land inhabited by dragon's that is right beside the city where these myths come from.

Edited by Toccs, 17 January 2013 - 10:00 PM.


#20 the_nights_baron

the_nights_baron

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 51 posts

Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:53 PM

i agree totally! i think that the Shadow is possibly a caused for the disruption in this fictional world.
check out this thread...it relates t a potential outcome resulting from this magical imbalance

http://asoiaf.wester...o/#entry4042271