406 replies to this topic

[awesome possum]

Independent George, on 10 December 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Yes.

Or, rather, no, but much of the Chicago-area media are.

Yep.  Chicago-area media is dominated by - as Jaime perfectly summed up Miller - especially stupid and reactionary people.  And far too many Chicago sports fans take the words of these rabble-rousers as gospel.

[Jaime L]

balefired-ed, on 10 December 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

The whole RG3 thing with trading away their first round picks just seems like a double edged sword to me.

On the one hand, you have a QB with obvious talent who is going to win you games that your run of the mill average QB will not.

On the other, you severely limit your options of improving the team in a meaningful way, especially with the new contract deals from the draft. Instead of getting relatively cheap first round talents you are pretty much forced into free agency, which on the whole seems to do alright as a short term fix but can really wreck your salary cap at the expense of someone who is most likely going to decline.

I admire the courage of the Skins' gamble, but only time will tell if it was wise.

For a team that has gone 20 years without anything resembling a franchise QB, the Skins made 100% the right choice by going all-in on the guys coming out this year. They could've held onto additonal picks and plugged in another CB or a WR, but they wouldn't have fixed the core dilemma that keeps undermining everything else, year after the year.

Honestly I think it's the Browns and to a lesser extent the Rams who made the bigger gamble by not making the move (or non-move) to get a franchise guy. In the modern NFL you're nothing without a great QB. Can count on one hand the number of teams who've won a Superbowl without one and that seems to be accelerating now in this current pass-happy QB dominated era we're going through now.  

Granted, the Rams are gambling they already had that guy in Bradford and the Browns are hoping that Weeden will be one too when the smoke clears, but each one seems far riskier to me than going all in on either of the top two guys coming out this past year. But as you say, time will tell. The proof will be in what the Rams, Browns and Redskins record is in the next 5 years or so. RG3 won't just be measured against Luck, he'll also be measured against all his potential suitors.

[Mexal]

awesome possum, on 10 December 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Yep.  Chicago-area media is dominated by - as Jaime perfectly summed up Miller - especially stupid and reactionary people.  And far too many Chicago sports fans take the words of these rabble-rousers as gospel.

Bengals media is actually pretty good but the fans are as bad as the Chicago media. Stupid and reactionary is being nice.

[Bronn Stone]

The 49ers have waived Brandon Jacobs.  That makes no sense to me.  Surely his grumbling cannot be so bad that it makes it worth it for them to let him return to New York, where he might actually help the depth-challenged Giants.  Unless this is a game of chicken by the Niners front office - figuring that one of the NFC East contenders will grab him to prevent the G-men from doing so.

Edited:  The initial report has been retracted.  The 49ers have suspended Jacobs for the remaining 3 games.  This makes more sense in light of the needs of the Giants right now.

Edited by Bronn Stone, 10 December 2012 - 06:04 PM.

[childe roland]

Jaime L, on 10 December 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

For a team that has gone 20 years without anything resembling a franchise QB, the Skins made 100% the right choice by going all-in on the guys coming out this year. They could've held onto additonal picks and plugged in another CB or a WR, but they wouldn't have fixed the core dilemma that keeps undermining everything else, year after the year.

Honestly I think it's the Browns and to a lesser extent the Rams who made the bigger gamble by not making the move (or non-move) to get a franchise guy. In the modern NFL you're nothing without a great QB. Can count on one hand the number of teams who've won a Superbowl without one and that seems to be accelerating now in this current pass-happy QB dominated era we're going through now.  

Granted, the Rams are gambling they already had that guy in Bradford and the Browns are hoping that Weeden will be one too when the smoke clears, but each one seems far riskier to me than going all in on either of the top two guys coming out this past year. But as you say, time will tell. The proof will be in what the Rams, Browns and Redskins record is in the next 5 years or so. RG3 won't just be measured against Luck, he'll also be measured against all his potential suitors.

I'll admit i cringe a lil bit thinking what if every timeRG3 makes a highlight play but the Rams had and still have so many holes on that team.  I would consider our draft this year a success outside of Quick who is taking forever to develop.  Brockers is starting along with Jenkins and Tru Johnson playing in nickel.  Multiple picks upcoming will hopefully help us rebuild that o line

[Maithanet]

Jaime L, on 10 December 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Granted, the Rams are gambling they already had that guy in Bradford and the Browns are hoping that Weeden will be one too when the smoke clears, but each one seems far riskier to me than going all in on either of the top two guys coming out this past year. But as you say, time will tell. The proof will be in what the Rams, Browns and Redskins record is in the next 5 years or so. RG3 won't just be measured against Luck, he'll also be measured against all his potential suitors.

The Rams got such a haul for Griffin though that Bradford doesn't need to be quite the quarterback that RG3 is in order to win.  I think that almost regardless of how good RG3 becomes, so long as Bradford turns out to be a top 10 quarterback, the Rams are going to have no regrets, and will be an NFC power for the next ten years.

Quote

. In the modern NFL you're nothing without a great QB. Can count on one hand the number of teams who've won a Superbowl without one

These days, it's increasingly becoming that not only do you need a franchise guy to win the Super Bowl, you need a franchise guy just to make the playoffs.  There are a few teams each year that can power their way in with running+defense, but that is definitely the hard way to do it.  A fun exercise would be to make a list of the top 12 quarterbacks in the league, and then compare that against the list of playoff teams.  What do you think it will be?  8/12?  More?

[Jaime L]

childe roland, on 10 December 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

I'll admit i cringe a lil bit thinking what if every timeRG3 makes a highlight play but the Rams had and still have so many holes on that team.  I would consider our draft this year a success outside of Quick who is taking forever to develop.  Brockers is starting along with Jenkins and Tru Johnson playing in nickel.  Multiple picks upcoming will hopefully help us rebuild that o line

Jenkins has looked really good for a rookie CB. Big hitter and good ball skills. Haven't seen much about Brockers. But those are the two guys you got this year by way of the Skins I believe.

Hoping we don't end up helping you too much with your continued reloading next year. A pick in the 20s as our yearly tribute would be perfect.

[Mexal]

Jaime L, on 10 December 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Jenkins has looked really good for a rookie CB. Big hitter and good ball skills. Haven't seen much about Brockers. But those are the two guys you got this year by way of the Skins I believe.

Hoping we don't end up helping you too much with your continued reloading next year. A pick in the 20s as our yearly tribute would be perfect.

Jenkins is the 2nd worst rated CB by PFF. He has a future though.

Brockers has been inconsistent but has had a few dominating games which leads you to believe he can be a pro bowler one day. Some really great play out of him.

[balefired-ed]

Jaime L, on 10 December 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

For a team that has gone 20 years without anything resembling a franchise QB, the Skins made 100% the right choice by going all-in on the guys coming out this year. They could've held onto additonal picks and plugged in another CB or a WR, but they wouldn't have fixed the core dilemma that keeps undermining everything else, year after the year.

Honestly I think it's the Browns and to a lesser extent the Rams who made the bigger gamble by not making the move (or non-move) to get a franchise guy. In the modern NFL you're nothing without a great QB. Can count on one hand the number of teams who've won a Superbowl without one and that seems to be accelerating now in this current pass-happy QB dominated era we're going through now.  

Granted, the Rams are gambling they already had that guy in Bradford and the Browns are hoping that Weeden will be one too when the smoke clears, but each one seems far riskier to me than going all in on either of the top two guys coming out this past year. But as you say, time will tell. The proof will be in what the Rams, Browns and Redskins record is in the next 5 years or so. RG3 won't just be measured against Luck, he'll also be measured against all his potential suitors.

I'll stick to what I know with the Browns in responding to this.

I feel like for this whole thing to work for the Skins, RG3 needs to be a world beater and needs to stay healthy. I think he has all the talent in the world to be a top 10 QB, and I would have loved if the Browns had gotten him, but I think it is very risky to put all your eggs in one basket on a guy who is smaller QB with his playing style.

For this to work for the Browns, Weeden doesn't need to be a Manning or Brady, I would say he needs to be a Schaub. The Browns current philosophy with Heckert as GM has been about acquiring depth on all fronts. The DL and OL are good, solid rotations, and he has done a good job finding diamonds in the rough for the WRs, LBs, and DBs. By keeping draft picks, he is going to be better able to infuse new talent to improve the team as a whole.

I would say that at the top level of the league, what we are talking about between the Skins, Browns, and Rams closely resembles the difference in philosophy between Houston and New England.

[kalbear]

The notion given rg3 and his historically insane progress being too much is silly. How many wins above Rex is he worth?

He was a steal. First round picks are worth so much less than he is

[Independent George]

RG3 was worth it. I think draft picks in general are overrated if you don't already have a franchise QB; you can't win without a QB no matter how good the rest of your team is. If RG3 didn't work out, those two first round picks wouldn't make a difference; if he does work out (and he has), then they can bear the cost of those picks.

The Giants paid a similar price for Eli, and it worked out pretty well for them because they were patient and didn't panic at the next draft. Shannahan just needs to keep gradually building up depth on the roster without blowing the cap. They won't contend overnight, but they could contend for a decade if they're careful.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

Maithanet, on 10 December 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

The Rams got such a haul for Griffin though that Bradford doesn't need to be quite the quarterback that RG3 is in order to win.  I think that almost regardless of how good RG3 becomes, so long as Bradford turns out to be a top 10 quarterback, the Rams are going to have no regrets, and will be an NFC power for the next ten years.

No way.  The Rams got robbed blind.  RGIII is the Michael Jordan of the NFL.  He WILL win multiple championships.  He's just a freak.  No other player can do the things he can do at the QB position.  And he's only a rookie!

The Browns and Rams will regret for years playing it safe.  They could have had RGIII.  But we got him.

HTTR!

[Jaimeisnotazombie]

I wouldnt have given up what the Skins did for RG3, he is good no doubt. How are they going to support him, Overpay free agents, Skins have been doing that for years, nothing good came of it.

Weeds is no RG3 or Luck, but i am happy with how it turned out.

Also Browns 3 in a row!! Yet still called a bottom feeder by some.

Soon to be 4 in a row, i have no fear of the Skins, as they probably dont fear us either.

Am i the only one who thinks RG3 looks really weird when he wears a helmet, his hair i feel is the problem.

[childe roland]

Mexal, on 10 December 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

Jenkins is the 2nd worst rated CB by PFF. He has a future though.

Brockers has been inconsistent but has had a few dominating games which leads you to believe he can be a pro bowler one day. Some really great play out of him.

part of Jenkins probs are scheme.  Our corners play crazy far off the line and he gets caught looking in the backfield a bit much. I've been happy with his play for most part with exception of NE game where Tom Brady just killed him

Edited by childe roland, 10 December 2012 - 05:49 PM.

[Mexal]

childe roland, on 10 December 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

part of Jenkins probs are scheme.  Our corners play crazy far off the line and he gets caught looking in the backfield a bit much. I've been happy with his play for most part with exception of NE game where Tom Brady just killed him

He is a pretty terrible zone corner at this point. Pretty good man cover guy though.

[viniS]

Lord O, on 10 December 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

Anybody but the Bears or Falcons. Not sure who this 49ers team is just now.

I feel for you, it's frustrating for me to watch Smith get benched for Kaep and I don't even give any fucks about the 49'ers. <Insert predicted joke about Sivin's infinite list of favorite teams, below>

Bronn Stone, on 10 December 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

The 49ers won the NFC championship last year????  I will let the Giants know.



Junior Seau wasn't enough for ya, eh?

Bronn, you're being obtuse. You know I was referencing the fact that they made it there at all.

Nope. I need something current, and I guess I could take something from the Jags if I have too.

Fez, on 10 December 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

As a Jets fan, if they do manage to sneak into that 6th seed, I'd say I wouldn't want to face anyone.  And I have no doubt that the Jets would be one and done.  But they did somehow give Indy their second worst loss of the year, 35-9 and they had a close game against the Texans but couldn't pull out the win, 23-17.  So I dunno.  Definitely wouldn't want to face New England or Denver, but I think the defense could at least keep them in any other game (if the offense can at least limit the turnovers).

I love your confidence. I also love Mark Sanchez's confidence, he goes out there like he's a real boy on every play.

Bronn Stone, on 10 December 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Hard to take seriously when someone just doesn't get it.  Both Kal and Mexal pointed out that snow games are fine as a novelty but should never happen in games that really matter.

Besides, the guy violated a good handful of thread-starting rules.  You don't start the next one of a busy thread if you started the last one.  You don't beat a dead horse if the other side toned it down when the mods came in.

In life there are just some folks who respond to the ringing of the clue phone by answering the door.

Damn it, BS. You can be a true asshole sometimes, but that last bit made me laugh my ass off.

Jaime L, on 10 December 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Even with the first round pick, and even if we could guarantee we'd get a substantially better player in the mid-first as opposed to late-first, I'd still take a playoff appearance over that. You can probably even point to the Texans as a team who has followed this model of coming up just short of the playoffs repeatedly and building a stronger core than they probably would have otherwise had they made the playoffs earlier

But for a team that's made the playoffs as infrequently as the Redskins have, just the act of making the playoffs is immensely meaningful. For the Skins it wouldn't matter that they wouldn't be serious Superbowl contenders, the point is they're among that elite 12. If it's the Pats, they can take it or leave it at this point if for whatever reason they're not likely to go all the way, but for the Skins it makes the season a resounding success.

Anyway, I'd agree with this line of thinking in the NBA where everyone and their mother makes the playoffs and it isn't much of an accomplishment. And furthermore because missing the playoffs puts you in the lottery you get a shot at the next game-changing superstar in the sport. But in football, for my team, give me the playoffs everytime without a hesitation.

^True story.

As much as I love Luck. It hurt so fucking much to go 2-14.

Noroldis, on 10 December 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

Wow. Are a lot of Bears fans retarded? Cutler might well be one of the very best QBs in the league right now if the Bears' O-line had more consistency than Swiss cheese. Even the Best Rookie Ever will struggle if he's running for his life every other play and getting sacked more often than any other QB.

Another true story.

A Bong of Ice and Fire, on 10 December 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

No way.  The Rams got robbed blind.  RGIII is the Michael Jordan of the NFL.  He WILL win multiple championships.  He's just a freak.  No other player can do the things he can do at the QB position.  And he's only a rookie!

The Browns and Rams will regret for years playing it safe.  They could have had RGIII.  But we got him.

HTTR!

Welcome, my son. And now I give to you the gift of the thread's title for "Most Ridiculous Memeber." Use it well.

Jaimeisnotazombie, on 10 December 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

I wouldnt have given up what the Skins did for RG3, he is good no doubt. How are they going to support him, Overpay free agents, Skins have been doing that for years, nothing good came of it.

Weeds is no RG3 or Luck, but i am happy with how it turned out.

Also Browns 3 in a row!! Yet still called a bottom feeder by some.

Soon to be 4 in a row, i have no fear of the Skins, as they probably dont fear us either.

Am i the only one who thinks RG3 looks really weird when he wears a helmet, his hair i feel is the problem.

Listen, baby. You're Browns are a great feel-less-awful story. But the Browns fit the description "bottom-feeder" better than plankton.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

Jaimeisnotazombie, on 10 December 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

I wouldnt have given up what the Skins did for RG3, he is good no doubt. How are they going to support him, Overpay free agents, Skins have been doing that for years, nothing good came of it.

Weeds is no RG3 or Luck, but i am happy with how it turned out.

Also Browns 3 in a row!! Yet still called a bottom feeder by some.

Soon to be 4 in a row, i have no fear of the Skins, as they probably dont fear us either.

Am i the only one who thinks RG3 looks really weird when he wears a helmet, his hair i feel is the problem.

You should be afraid. "Captain" Kirk Cousins is gunning for you, phasers set to kill.

[kalbear]

Quote

I wouldnt have given up what the Skins did for RG3, he is good no doubt. How are they going to support him, Overpay free agents, Skins have been doing that for years, nothing good came of it.

Let's assume for a second that those 2 first round picks would be pro-bowl caliber players. This is a totally ludicrous assumption; first round picks have about a 40% success rate for simply staying in the NFL, much less great picks. But let's assume that is the case.

How long will it take to make up for those two pro bowl players? Let's take Cleveland and assume Richardson is a pro bowl player and one of the corners is. And you get, say, Weeden instead.

Would anyone out there trade Jenkins, Morris and RG3 for Richardson, Weeden and the CB on the Browns? Anyone at all?

To me, this notion seems ludicrous. The only way you could get two first round picks worth remotely what RG3 has shown so far is to get a great left tackle and a great nose tackle. And even then, chances are you wouldn't see a return on investment until you got yourself...a good QB.

[Jaime L]

Terrifying headline for Mack: Caldwell will get to match wits with Peyton

Now we can finally find out who contributed more to the Colts success all those years.

Edited by Jaime L, 10 December 2012 - 06:51 PM.

[Bronn Stone]

Sivin, on 10 December 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

Bronn, you're being obtuse. You know I was referencing the fact that they made it there at all.

Well, one of us is.  I made a comment about the limit of Smith being getting to but not winning the title game and definitely not winning a Super Bowl and your counter-argument, quoting me, was that Smith made it to a conference title game (using language that suggested they won).

Anything is possible in the NFL and the Trent Dilfer factor proves that you can win with a relatively mediocre QB, but I think Harbaugh is dead on when he decided that his best chance of winning a title was to see if he can make Kaepernick into the next Steve Young.  Waiting to see if Smith can Dilfer is way in is not a good strategy and Jim was smart to see that.