137 replies to this topic

[Lion of Judah]

So I have been thinking about starting this thread for a while, but wasn’t sure exactly how to pull it off. So in this thread we will discuss/debate characters guilt or innocence on any charges brought forth. It does not have to be an illegal act, it could be any accusation about anyone. Every character is fair game. Everyone. This thread is to promote good/competitive debate in a respectful manner. Any poster can nominate any character at the beginning of the week, the charges brought forth will be discussed for that week and judgement/sentencing will be passed at the end of the week. So how will this work:

*Every poster has one vote of guilt or innocence.
*If found guilty we will have four options for sentencing.

• Send them to the wall.
  
  
• Death by sword. (Clean and quick)
  
  
• Death by flames. (An ode to R’hllor)
  
  
• Death by flaying. (oh boy)

*Make your case for guilt or innocence and state your position at the end of your post.
*At the end of the week any poster can tally the vote and carry out the final sentencing. Majority rules. Only the nominated character will be discussed.
*Votes can be changed before they are counted, but do so in your original post.
*Make suggestions on how to makes this better. Posters can just cast a vote, that is your right, but try to state a case as well. Your opinion actually matters in this case.
*Don't take it personal if your favorite character is being torn to pieces. Everyone is fair game.

**Update: As an option we don't have to vote innocent you can cast a vote for dismissal as well. Same rule of majority applies though.

**Update 2: Had some very good suggestions from posters about the sentencing process, so the list of options has been updated to include prison time, monetary fine, exile, loss of a hand. As far as evidence that can be submitted, posters can submit any argument they deem relevant. However we cannot use any pardons or prior convictions as evidence in the matter. Our court will not recognize the judgement of any other court.
Posters remember to cast you judgement on the charges!!!!!!

So let’s begin! The character with the honor of being the first to be prosecuted in our court of law is...Tywin Lannister, duh his name is in the title.

Charges- I accuse Tywin Lannister of facilitating the murder of women and children, of breaking the rules of warfare, of theft, being a bad father and genocide.

Tywin Lannister used his position as warden of the west to influence Gregor ‘The Mountain’ Clegane to carry the rape, theft, and murder of smallfolk throughout the Riverlands. He admitted to facilitating the murder of Elia and her children to Tyrion by claiming it was done to solidify their standing within Robert’s rebellion. He took part in the cleansing of House Darklyn as ‘The Mad King’s’ hand. He turned a blind eye to the incest of Jamie and Cersei and promoted devision amongst his children by casting Tyrion as the black sheep. Instead of returning Lord Eddard’s ancestral blade, Lord Tywin stole it and gave it as gifts to his son and grandson.

I vote guilty on all charges. Sentence to death by flames.

Edit for spelling.
ETA

Edited by Lion Of Judah, 10 December 2012 - 11:54 PM.

[Frey Pie]

I second your motion, but would like to add to his list of crimes-high treason. While King Robert was still alive, Eddard Stark acting as the Kings Hand, sent out a force of Royalists carrying the Royal banner to detain Gregor and bring Tywin to account for raiding the Riverlands. This force was then attacked by Lannister men, under orders from Tywin. Hence why i believe this was treason, irrespective of the fact that Robert was dead soon after said crime and had no chance to react.

Death by Ice for me

[Jordouche]

No innocent option?

[TheWanderer]

Lion Of Judah, on 10 December 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

Charges- I accuse Tywin Lannister of facilitating the murder of women and children, of breaking the rules of warfare, of theft, being a bad father and genocide.

Tywin Lannister used his position as warden of the west to influence Gregor ‘The Mountain’ Clegane to carry the rape, theft, and murder of smallfolk throughout the Riverlands. He admitted to facilitating the murder of Elia and her children to Tyrion by claiming it was done to solidify their standing within Robert’s rebellion. He took part in the cleansing of House Darklyn as ‘The Mad King’s’ hand. He turned a blind eye to the incest of Jamie and Cersei and promoted devision amongst his children by casting Tyrion as the black sheep. Instead of returning Lord Eddard’s ancestral blade, Lord Tywin stole it and gave it as gifts to his son and grandson.

I vote guilty on all charges.

I agree.

Unfortunately several of these are not criminal offenses. His mistreatment of his children is bad but it is by no means criminal. His killing of House Darklyn (the details of which escape me) can be put down to the way war works. And his 'theft' of Ice is his right by conquest.

The charges that are criminal, with the additional charge of High Treason, are more than enough to warrant the death penalty though.

I would sentence him to be sacrificed before the Heart Tree of Winterfell. (If he weren't already dead, I suppose burning in effigy will have to suffice)

Edited by TheWanderer, 10 December 2012 - 05:35 PM.

[ab aeterno]

What if we only find him guilty of some charges?

[Khal GoGo]

I accuse Jaime Lannister of high treason, murder, fornification with the Queen and oathbreaking.
Jaime Lannister used his honorable position as a knight of the Kingsguard to slay his rightful King, breaking his oath and the laws of the land, regardless of his good intentions. He then did swear to a new king, but did sleep with the Queen, his own sister, an abomination in the sight of the Gods, old and new. Not content with this treason he then did enter the household of Eddard Stark, as a guest, and attempted to murder his son, a boy of 8, when caught in his dastardly act. Still not done, he later attempted to maim Lord Starks daughter, a young girl of just nine years, who's only crime was defending herself from the vicious attack of Lannisters son, the abomination and bastard, Joffrey Hill, known as Baratheon. His other crimes are too numerous too list, but no doubt they are felt throughout the realm

I, Khal GoGo, first of my name do find him guilty, and sentence him to death by the fire. May the Father judge him justly.

ETA- Wait... Have I put this in the right thread? Or is this one dedicated to Tywin?

Edited by Khal GoGo, 10 December 2012 - 05:49 PM.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

While I agree with all your arguments, I would just like to point at the following:

The "foraging" was often, I believe, a part of war and Lord Tywin was fighting this war to defend the honour of his house.
He did all he could to find peace and was offered his enemies reasonable terms for their surrender.
I don't think he knew about the twincest.

However, good deeds do not wash out the bad, nor do bad deeds wash out the good.
I find the defendant, Lord Tywin of House Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock, Shield of Lannisport and Warden of the West, guilty of ordering the ravaging of thousands of people in the Riverlands, the murder of Princess Elia of House Martell, Princess of Dorne and the theft of Ice, the Valyrian blade of House Stark. I do hereby sentence him to death by sword.

Edited by Stannis Eats No Peaches, 10 December 2012 - 06:07 PM.

[ab aeterno]

Guilty of all but genocide. Death by the sword.

Edited by ab aeterno, 10 December 2012 - 06:09 PM.

[Lion of Judah]

Jordouche, on 10 December 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

No innocent option?

Yes innocence is an option. We don't have to agree on the charges as a matter of fact that could be reason to vote innocent.

[Mr Motte]

I find him guilty of breaking the King's Peace, and therefore should be considered an open traitor to the realm. The burning of the Riverlands would go under this. And while responsible, I wouldn't charge him for the murder of the Darklyns, nor taking Ice, nor being a bad parent.

Sentence- Death by sword, for his remains to be returned to and buried under Casterly Rock.

[Lion of Judah]

TheWanderer, on 10 December 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

I agree.

Unfortunately several of these are not criminal offenses. His mistreatment of his children is bad but it is by no means criminal. His killing of House Darklyn (the details of which escape me) can be put down to the way war works. And his 'theft' of Ice is his right by conquest.

The charges that are criminal, with the additional charge of High Treason, are more than enough to warrant the death penalty though.

I would sentence him to be sacrificed before the Heart Tree of Winterfell. (If he weren't already dead, I suppose burning in effigy will have to suffice)

There is a hypothetical aspect of this, we are supposing that they are brought forth to be tried by us. Like I said any character for any offense. Your defense or prosecution can be the argument of your choice, so you can argue that the charges aren't criminal and vote innocent. Your argument might persuade others even the OP to change his/her vote.

Now I challenge your right to conquest on Tywin stealing Eddard's sword. There was no war declared, to this point no banners were called. What is their to conquer? Eddard was accused and sentenced to death for treason, his head was chopped off, stealing his property is not a part of his sentence. Also there is precedent with the great sword Dawn being returned to it's rightful owners after the TOJ.

Edited by Lion Of Judah, 10 December 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[TheWanderer]

Lion Of Judah, on 10 December 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Now I challenge your right to conquest on Tywin stealing Eddard's sword. There was no war declared, to this point no banners were called. What is their to conquer? Eddard was accused and sentenced to death for treason, his head was chopped off, stealing his property is not a part of his sentence. Also there is precedent with the great sword Dawn being returned to it's rightful owners after the TOJ.

Conquest was the wrong word. In the real world (I don't know the official Westerosi policy on this) the property of traitors was often seized by the crown and/or their agents. It's a large part of how they would pay for the legal system (it's also a large part of why rich people were often accused). In my opinion Ice, as the property of a confessed traitor, is then made the property of the state to be done with by Joffery as he wishes (including giving to his father to be melted down).


Oh, and I understood the hypothetical aspect, that was more of a joke.

Edited by TheWanderer, 10 December 2012 - 06:27 PM.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Tywin Lannister is guilty of
- sexual maltreatment of his stepmother
- high treason against King Aerys II without just cause
- ordering murder, rape and defiling of corpses of men, women and children during the Sack of Kings Landing, against the expressed orders of the CO at the field of battle, Ned Stark
- sexual maltreatment and rape of his own son and his daughter-in-law
- high treason against King Robert by attacking the Riverlands
- ordering war crimes way beyond the excusable in the Riverlands
- refusing orders by King Joffrey I
- ordering the Red Wedding against the most important law of gods and men
- defiling the Starks family heirloom

Death by burning, ashes to be distributed in a privy, confiscation of all castles, lands, incomes and nobility itself. Damnatio Memoriae.

[Lion of Judah]

TheWanderer, on 10 December 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

Conquest was the wrong word. In the real world (I don't know the official Westerosi policy on this) the property of traitors was often seized by the crown and/or their agents. It's a large part of how they would pay for the legal system (it's also a large part of why rich people were often accused). In my opinion Ice, as the property of a confessed traitor, is then made the property of the state to be done with by Joffery as he wishes (including giving to his father to be melted down).


Oh, and I understood the hypothetical aspect, that was more of a joke.

If you can find this policy and site it that might be grounds to have the theft charge tossed. Note the word might lol.

[EddardCorleone]

He is guilty of all the things Lion mentioned but some of those things aren't punishable by death but some of the others are.
You can't send him to the wall he is to manipulative, he would find a way out.
Death by sword!

[Ramsay Gimp]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 10 December 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Tywin Lannister is guilty of
- sexual maltreatment of his stepmother
- high treason against King Aerys II without just cause
- ordering murder, rape and defiling of corpses of men, women and children during the Sack of Kings Landing, against the expressed orders of the CO at the field of battle, Ned Stark
- sexual maltreatment and rape of his own son and his daughter-in-law
- high treason against King Robert by attacking the Riverlands
- ordering war crimes way beyond the excusable in the Riverlands
- refusing orders by King Joffrey I
- ordering the Red Wedding against the most important law of gods and men
- defiling the Starks family heirloom

Death by burning, ashes to be distributed in a privy, confiscation of all castles, lands, incomes and nobility itself. Damnatio Memoriae.

Really? Condemning him for refusing the orders of two mad Kings seems a bit much. Eddard and King Robert himself would both be executed under that parardigm

Edited by Ramsay Gimp, 10 December 2012 - 06:44 PM.

[NitzanLeo]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 10 December 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Tywin Lannister is guilty of
- sexual maltreatment of his stepmother
- high treason against King Aerys II without just cause
- ordering murder, rape and defiling of corpses of men, women and children during the Sack of Kings Landing, against the expressed orders of the CO at the field of battle, Ned Stark
- sexual maltreatment and rape of his own son and his daughter-in-law
- high treason against King Robert by attacking the Riverlands
- ordering war crimes way beyond the excusable in the Riverlands
- refusing orders by King Joffrey I
- ordering the Red Wedding against the most important law of gods and men
- defiling the Starks family heirloom

Death by burning, ashes to be distributed in a privy, confiscation of all castles, lands, incomes and nobility itself. Damnatio Memoriae.

Where did you get sexual maltreatment of his mother-in-law? He had her do a walk of shame. That's barely sexual maltreatment. He accused her of stealing. That's penance and punishment. And sexual maltreatment of his son and daughter-in-law? Where the hell did you get that?

Anyway, I agree on the final sentence of death by fire, though. Even though Tywin mostly did what he did (Darklyn and the Reynes) in order of the King/to keep the peace and power in his hand, I do think he overdid this by completely annihilating the houses. That might not be genocide. That's ordering mass murder.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Yea, "genocide" isn't an appropriate charge for Lord Tywin.

[Lion of Judah]

Ramsay Gimp, on 10 December 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Yea, "genocide" isn't an appropriate charge for Lord Tywin.

Remember to cast your judgement.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Ramsay Gimp, on 10 December 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Really? Condemning him for refusing the orders of two mad Kings seems a bit much. Eddard and King Robert himself would both be executed under that parardigm

That's why I mentioned "without just cause". Ned and Bob rebelled because Aerys broke his part of the feudal treaty, killed their relatives and wanted to murder them. Tywin just wanted to advance his House, without a reason to fear for it's survival.

NitzanLeo, on 10 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Where did you get sexual maltreatment of his mother-in-law? He had her do a walk of shame. That's barely sexual maltreatment. He accused her of stealing. That's penance and punishment. And sexual maltreatment of his son and daughter-in-law? Where the hell did you get that?

Anyway, I agree on the final sentence of death by fire, though. Even though Tywin mostly did what he did (Darklyn and the Reynes) in order of the King/to keep the peace and power in his hand, I do think he overdid this by completely annihilating the houses. That might not be genocide. That's ordering mass murder.

What is a walk of shame else than sexual maltreatment? And he falsely accused her of stealing. Tytos gaver her everything out of his own free will.
What happened to Tyrion and Tysha Lannister? That's again sexual maltreatment/abuse. Rape would cover only Tysha.