201 replies to this topic

[Elba the Intoner]

Woman of War, on 12 December 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

By my little direwolf:

Am I understanding you properly, are you saying that Martin gives too much in to political correctness by liking Arya and Tyrion too much? That he  has Invented  these characters out of fear for being seen as politically incorrect, with all those Lords and Ladies, so he needed the "physically challenged" cripple in the story? In that case Martin could have done better: he could have made Tyrion the good guy without flaws who is always wronged against and never wavers in doing good deeds. Mission in political correctness not accomplished here! The guy is simply too much of a human being to be the alibi cripple for our bad conscience.
And Arya? Is it politically incorrect to invent a politcally correct character, while promoting the politically incorrect girl would be the new correct? Should Martin promote the  female agency to live an allegedly feminine life within the frame of conventional expectations towards women?

I can't speak for My Little Direwolf but what I took her statement to mean, and I would agree with this if in fact this is what she meant, is that in our modern society we have become programmed into seeing only one way for a woman to make a strong feminist statement - which is by rejecting the idea of marriage altogether or wearing boys clothes and acting all tough and "kickass".  My reaction to this is to ask why can't a woman remain feminine, like pretty things, and even want to get married, but still make a strong feminist statement by saying, for example, yes, I'll marry but on my terms.  I made a comment in the Pawn to Player thread recently about this, though I was discussing my love for all Jane Austen's heroines.  They are all feminine and comfortable with being women, and none of them are looking to take on manly pursuits or pick up a weapon and learn to fight for example, but they all refuse to settle for marrying just anyone.  They hold on to their ideals and they exert their agency so that in the end they end up happily married to the man of their choice.  I don't think they are any less "feminist" because they want to get married and in the end do just that.  

And this is what Sansa's story is all about.  By the end of AFFC she specifically says I do not want to marry again, and laments that no one will ever lover her for herself only her claim, which is a complete 180 from where she started.  Yet some readers still view her as passive and weak even then.  I disagree but that is my personal opinion there.  So, for me it's not about that Arya's way of rejecting being feminine and following "manly" pursuits is the better way, it's just a different way that works for her, but that doesn't mean that Sansa's way is less legitimate or strong a statement.  However, I believe that our modern society stuffs down our throats that Arya's way is the better way.  For ex, Disney was mentioned earlier and Disney's most recent animated release, Brave, is the perfect example of it.  I won't get started here on why I dislike this movie as this is not the thread for it but suffice it to say I gritted my teeth through most of it, and hated how they ended the conflict between the traditional mother and the spunky daughter who is oh so great with an arrow, which is that the mother basically gives in!)

Anyway, I actually commend Martin in that he seems to be examining these issues from all different angles.  Catelyn is a strong mother type, who acts on emotion.  Even Cersei has strong maternal feelings and is motivated in her own twisted way by the need to protect her children.  Another real good example is Brienne.  Though Brienne has learned to fight and dress like a man, she only does this because she believes that is her only option to have some relevancy in this world.  If you look at her thoughts throughout AFFC, she actually seems very feminine in her thinking and seems to want to get married and have children.  She develops a touching motherly relationship to Pod and she would make a great mother.  So, is Brienne making the strong feminist statement then?  Well, yes in that by dressing as a knight and learning to fight she is saying screw it I don't need to get married, but no, in that she seems to have given up hope of ever having something she truly seems to want, to be married to a man that she can love and to have children, which is a sad thought if you think about it.

Woman of War, on 12 December 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

I think the whole debate Arya at the expense of Sansa or Sansa at the expense of Arya reflects exactly this dead end where political feminism has arrived at the moment: are we afraid of our own courage?  Feminity as right to passivity and passivity as big Nono in the race for success? Can it be the politically correct solution to demand the right of women to live their personal life confined or happy (as you like) within the social structure that has always been granted to women, the resposibility for their families' welfare? Is refusing to take part in the rat race the new freedom of women or should we call this: leaving the fate of the world to men, as always?
I am trying not to give my personal opinion in this little feuilletonistic political essay. what I am trying is to make you aware of the general weight of this conflict for us women. We are at a fork in the road for women here. This can be seen e.g. in my country by bringing topics like the nature of motherhood and childcare back on the political agenda.

I do agree with you that pitting Sansa vs. Arya against each other though is not very constructive but unfortunately it seems to happen a lot.

Now getting back to the OP, Martin appears to have stated that Cat and Sansa are his least favorites, but I don't get the sense that he hates them.  I'm pretty sure I read another blurb from an interview he gave where he said that he loves all his characters as they are like his children, his creation, and it's hard for him to write when he has to kill one off.  I also know I read an interview with him recently somewhere where they discussed Cat in particular as being a strong woman that seemed unusual in this genre and Martin agreed.  (Don't have the comments directly at hand though so I hope I represented these comments correctly).  So, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that he structured his story in such a way as to make each character's journey a study in development even if at times he seems to have had some trouble with it, for example the extreme naivite of Sansa in the first book.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Kittykatknits, on 11 December 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Martin's least favorite characters happen to be Sansa and Catelyn, the same two who he has written in a less sympathetic manner. Is it possible that Martin chose to write his favorites in a more lenient manner, perhaps even unconsciously?

Duh.  The answer would be yes he writes his favorites in a more lenient manner and that he probably did so quite consciously.  

As far as I can tell, every writer has favorite characters or certain characters he'd like to be viewed sympathetically.  Sometimes this is the way the author tells the reader which values, points of view, behaviors, etc. he thinks are important, even if those aren't values shared by the his readership. Sometimes this is how he reveals the hero of the piece.   Whatever, an author is under no obligation to treat every character in the same.

I also think an author is entitled to enjoy himself a bit.  If he has a little more fun in the head of character x or y and that shows on the page, so be it.  It shouldn't be a surprise that GRRM enjoys spending time in the head of an off-the-hook food-and-sex glutton like Tyrion or a foul-mouthed little hoyden like Arya than in the head of  an iron matron or little lady.  The first two get to break rules and do all manner of things that can only be done in fantasy; the second two get to suffer.

Clearly GRRM hasn't done a bad job writing Sansa and Catelyn, even if they're not presented sympathetically, because so many readers are obsessed with them.  It is equally clear that many readers don't like Tyrion, Arya or Jon (the last of which is surprising to me) in spite of their more sympathetic portrayals.  

The real question is – what's the problem?  Is it that the author has favorite characters, ones that perhaps he would like his readers to like as well, or that his favorites aren't your favorites?  

[Éadaoin]

Elba the Intoner, on 12 December 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Now getting back to the OP, Martin appears to have stated that Cat and Sansa are his least favorites, but I don't get the sense that he hates them.

I still wonder if GRRM is saying that Cat/Sansa are his least favorites or the fanbase's. The wording is tricky here. One of the biggest things these characters have in common is their feminine attributes. I can understand why perhaps it would be harder for GRRM to get into their heads (though I think he does an admirable job); I do not understand why these two would be the most hated in the fandom when we have POV characters who have done far more reprehensible things (Cersei, Theon, Tyrion, etc). Disliking them, sure, people all have different tastes. But I am still sometimes surprised at the sheer amount of hate they receive. I am not fond of some characters, but they don't inspire in me such vitriolic feelings. Perhaps it is a mark of GRRM's writing strength that he can inspire such strong emotions, I don't know.

I agree with jons nissa that GRRM meant to write Sansa unsympathetically and then turn her around (perhaps similarly to what he did with Jaime, though these characters are very different). It makes for an interesting character arc, and I find both Sansa and Jaime fascinating. Similarly, I find Tyrion very intriguing, and feel quite conflicted about him. I rooted for him so hard, and he (seemingly) fell so far. Amazing what GRRM has done with these characters.

Ultimately, I think that GRRM did intend to write some characters more sympathetically, perhaps for a combination of reasons - not the least among them being the ability to play with our expectations. Makes for a very good read.

Where whores go <-, on 12 December 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

To me I think it is part of what makes the books so captivating that we as readers are drawn to the characters that are more in line with our modern values lost in a medieval society where they are outsiders. While characters like Cat and Sansa that fit in well within that society are more disliked by the readers. It does make perfect sense though.

Interesting that you say this. I have always wondered why I identified much more with Sansa when I do share some of the more modern sensibilities of Arya. Perhaps the "outsiders" bit is important. Unlike Arya, I never felt like an outsider growing up. I fit in pretty well, like Sansa did. Hmm. Interesting to think about.

[Where Boars Glow]

Éadaoin, on 12 December 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

I still wonder if GRRM is saying that Cat/Sansa are his least favorites or the fanbase's. The wording is tricky here. One of the biggest things these characters have in common is their feminine attributes. I can understand why perhaps it would be harder for GRRM to get into their heads (though I think he does an admirable job); I do not understand why these two would be the most hated in the fandom when we have POV characters who have done far more reprehensible things (Cersei, Theon, Tyrion, etc). Disliking them, sure, people all have different tastes. But I am still sometimes surprised at the sheer amount of hate they receive. I am not fond of some characters, but they don't inspire in me such vitriolic feelings. Perhaps it is a mark of GRRM's writing strength that he can inspire such strong emotions, I don't know.

I agree with jons nissa that GRRM meant to write Sansa unsympathetically and then turn her around (perhaps similarly to what he did with Jaime, though these characters are very different). It makes for an interesting character arc, and I find both Sansa and Jaime fascinating. Similarly, I find Tyrion very intriguing, and feel quite conflicted about him. I rooted for him so hard, and he (seemingly) fell so far. Amazing what GRRM has done with these characters.

Ultimately, I think that GRRM did intend to write some characters more sympathetically, perhaps for a combination of reasons - not the least among them being the ability to play with our expectations. Makes for a very good read.



Interesting that you say this. I have always wondered why I identified much more with Sansa when I do share some of the more modern sensibilities of Arya. Perhaps the "outsiders" bit is important. Unlike Arya, I never felt like an outsider growing up. I fit in pretty well, like Sansa did. Hmm. Interesting to think about.

I would say on average though that most "hardcore fans" the type that would sign up for a board to discuss fantasy/scifi related topics online would tend to be social outsiders and therefore relate more to character who also were.

[brashcandy]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 12 December 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

The first two get to break rules and do all manner of things that can only be done in fantasy; the second two get to suffer.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten what a wonderful world Martin created for everyone but the traditional female characters.  

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Clearly GRRM hasn't done a bad job writing Sansa and Catelyn, even if they're not presented sympathetically, because so many readers are obsessed with them.  It is equally clear that many readers don't like Tyrion, Arya or Jon (the last of which is surprising to me) in spite of their more sympathetic portrayals.  

Arya and Tyrion regularly top favourite character lists. If their fans choose to not examine them because in their minds they're flawless... well... there you go. I think you'll find though that most readers admit to having loved Tyrion and Arya right from the start and only perhaps change their views later on.

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The real question is – what's the problem?  Is it that the author has favorite characters, ones that perhaps he would like his readers to like as well, or that his favorites aren't your favorites?  

I think Kitty was trying to tease out that we have to understand how the author's narrative techniques (and preferences) influence our perception of the characters, particularly in the first book. The answer to this might be "duh" but the ramifications are a bit more complex. It's why rereading threads can be so beneficial because suddenly we're taken out of the flow of the story where we're happily skipping along with the characters, and asked instead to really examine their development and our own responses.

[Éadaoin]

Where whores go <-, on 12 December 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

I would say on average though that most "hardcore fans" the type that would sign up for a board to discuss fantasy/scifi related topics online would tend to be social outsiders and therefore relate more to character who also were.

I guess I can see this. I have felt like an outsider before for brief periods but it was never pervasive enough for me to identify with a character because of it. I did start out really loving Tyrion, though not because I really identified with him. He is quite different from me and I loved that. I find his character arc to be one of the most fascinating and I'm currently very conflicted on him. I think that's a sign of a well-written character.

[Mirijam]

Too many great points to quote and aswer them all,
I am certain that GRRM is writing with the intent of making some of his characters more likeable than others, and why not? He has to get us emotionally invested in them or we will not enjoy the story.
I don't have a problem with Tyrion being written sympathetically because if i didn't like him in the beginning, I would hate him in ADWD, but having liked him once, I am still able to empathize even when he is doing horrible things. I am not a lily-white person either, and it is catharsic to go in the hole that is his morality right now. It makes me question myself. If I didn't like him in the beginning it would be too easy to say, no, that would never be me, Tyrion is simply evil. [I am female, btw]

Arya has more appeal for modern readers but she is not a 'modern character', she belongs into the world of I&F as Sansa does, has same illusions about knights as Sansa, same wish to be a warrior as Cersei and Lyanna, same wish to choose her own fate as Alys Karstark, in many ways she is just like her mother... Same with Eddard, in some aspects he is NOT modern and that must be taken into account.

Sansa is written to be disliked from the beginning and liked later on, with perhaps liking her more on a reread.

GRRM has stated that his books are meant to be read more then once and no doubt he is writing a work that has to be actively engaged to be understood.
People who skip and skim are going to miss important points, and people who are unaware of third person limited perspective are going to take everything written as Word of Narrator and misunderstand GRRM's intent. Of course, that means that a lot of people are simply not prepared to invest the time and effort and will miss things [which is ok for as long as they don't slut-shame the characters or wish they die horribly? I think it's ok, we are not perfect].

But there is a problem with Sansa that goes way beyond authorial intent. Majority of readers are going to strongly dislike Sansa all the way into AFfC. This is not what GRRM wanted.

• It could be that GRRM found it so hard to get into the head of medieval feminine little girl that her chapters are badly written. I strongly suspect this, they are as hard to read as Dany's in Mereen. Hard work and not pleasure the way Arya's chapters are.
  
• It could be that Sansa is the fantasy genre outsider. Who can the readers compare her to?* Arwen comes to mind and she can hardly be called a character. If this were any other fantasy novel Sansa would be at least a mage by now, but in asoiaf she remains the least magical of her siblings.

*No, really, any ideas at all? I can't think of anybody.

• It could be that the strong value dissonance between Westeros and us blinds us to what was important to Catelyn and Sansa? Who cares that Cat was fertile, among the readers? What about in-universe: Cat! Eddard, Lysa, Hoster, Cersei... That Jon is a bastard? That Jaime killed a king? That ser Arys broke his vow of celibacy?
  
• Sansa in particular comes off much worse if the reader is unaware of the POV structure - and unaware is how most of us came to these books. We see inside of her head after Arya has already 'told us all about her' - and some of it is not true. Other things that would put her in perspective only come in later books (her character development, that her education is typical, that her illusions are shared by others, etc).
  
• Sansa does not dislike Jon, Sansa does not bully Arya, Sansa is not too class conscious. No, really!

I would agree that GRRM has given the tomboy and the men easy way out of their dilemas, but we have more books comming. He isn't done deconstructing and constructing fantasy genre. All the characters are somewhere in the middle of their arc and there is a lot more to happen.

Edited for spelling.

Edited by Mirijam, 12 December 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[Éadaoin]

Mirijam, on 12 December 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

I would agree that GRRM has given the tomboy and the men easy way out of their dilemas, but we have more books comming. He isn't done deconstructing and constructing fantasy genre. All the characters are somewhere in the middle of their arc and there is a lot more to happen.

I am a bit unclear as to what you mean by this but am curious. How has GRRM given Arya and the men easier ways out of their dilemmas?

[Birgitte]

The sympathy from the author for some of the characters is imo quite natural. GRRM are trying to get almost all archetypes in the story (as in real life), Some of those, like Sansa representing a cheerleader-like type, may not be on his favorite list of people and therefore it will be difficult to portray those traits as positive.

Reading many of the discussions, it seems that many overlook the fact, that most of the characters are children or teenagers. Maybe they are grown-ups in this society, but their brains are still reacting like a teenagers.
I think GRRM are trying to make us recall that, e.g. in the bedding scene with Tyrion and Sansa, where it is being pointed out to us.

[Woman of War]

brashcandy, on 12 December 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

[/color]



....

Arya and Tyrion regularly top favourite character lists. If their fans choose to not examine them because in their minds they're flawless... well... there you go. I think you'll find though that most readers admit to having loved Tyrion and Arya right from the start and only perhaps change their views later on.

well, maybe it's not only a fairweather love affair Martin has with his characters, maybe he is willing to go through thick and thin with them, taking them down into the mud, exploring them until it really hurts and yet loving them. And some readers may see it the same way.
How much do you root for raging Uncat? What if Sansa gets immoral and murderous? Will her fans continue loving her dark grey as she might become or would they find all kinds of justifications that in reality she is not dark at all. Everybody can be evil.

........

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It's why rereading threads can be so beneficial because suddenly we're taken out of the flow of the story where we're happily skipping along with the characters, and asked instead to really examine their development and our own responses.

agree. The Tyrion reread thread is very carefully written and very differenciated even if or because there are quite a few posts where I see things differently. But this is the point there, every opinion is allowed and no one sees the analysis of  the character as slight on his or her own personality. Nobody is overidentifying, attributing his or her on fantasies and dreams to the character discussed, seeing of course infallible proof for one's own interpretation behind the smallest random word while everybody who disagrees has not read the books. A reread thread is not a club members only, it is a - guess what - forum.

By Mirijam

Quote

It could be that Sansa is the fantasy genre outsider. Who can the readers compare her to?* Arwen comes to mind and she can hardly be called a character. If this were any other fantasy novel Sansa would be at least a mage by now, but in asoiaf she remains the least magical of her siblings.

Hm, I do not think this is the problem here. Actually there are far less characters who are magical than not and many very important characters are (so far) not magical at all: Jaime, Tyrion, Asha, Cersei. Cat herself has no "badass" attributes at all, nor has Arianne.  And Sam, one of my faves, is the epitome of brave without being badass. I love him because he is so very average, apart from being quite clever

Edited by Woman of War, 12 December 2012 - 05:36 PM.

[Kittykatknits]

jons nissa, on 12 December 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

while i agree that i think this moment was meant to establish jon further, it cannot help but establish cat as well. remember this moment comes after her firm insistence in her own pov regarding jon (The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south" ............   Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husbands eyes.) this is not meant to endear us to catelyn stark. in the end, cat is who she is, not just a prop in that bedside scene.

I'm not sure we are in disagreement. My intent is not to dismiss her as a prop, every action and deed helps to establish a character - not just their thoughts. My point is more that Martin wanted us in Jon's mind in that moment so we an understand his thoughts and how he reacts to the situation, to develop his character.

jons nissa, on 12 December 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

if i'm going to be honest, i'm not sure the problem is that of the traditional femine role.

I wonder if some of it is because we aren't in her head in the same way we are other characters.

Golden&Crimson, on 12 December 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Completly agree with all your post and, specially, with this part.

But, to me, i always found Arya the least interesting character of them all, because i found her story so farfetched, too the point i find her chapters a cheap "ninja-assassin" novel type.

Tyrion, to me is diferent. Until the his murder of Shae and Tywin, i found his chapters one of the best in the books, after that i think the author is forcing a bit too much. Turns in a murder of a defenseless woman, kills his father, abuse slaves, isn´t killed on sight by Jon Connington, go to the other side of the world and is made a slave.

About Sansa and Catelyn: they were always two of my personal favorites, and also two of the best write and rational chapters.
I lamented more the death of Catelyn than Robb, because that means we never get another one of Catelyn pov.

Thank you. The post was an attempt to step back and understand how Martin's approach to the different characters may influence our perceptions at times and to (hopefully) better understand his intent as a writer. Sansa and Cat, along with many others, are personal favorites of mine too.

Sand Snake No. 9, on 12 December 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

The real question is – what's the problem?  Is it that the author has favorite characters, ones that perhaps he would like his readers to like as well, or that his favorites aren't your favorites?  

brashcandy, on 12 December 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

I think Kitty was trying to tease out that we have to understand how the author's narrative techniques (and preferences) influence our perception of the characters, particularly in the first book. The answer to this might be "duh" but the ramifications are a bit more complex. It's why rereading threads can be so beneficial because suddenly we're taken out of the flow of the story where we're happily skipping along with the characters, and asked instead to really examine their development and our own responses.

My problem? Well, brashcandy already answered what I was attempting to do in her response to you. It may be "duh" to you, be an attempt to understand what Martin is doing as a writer, in an effort to better understand the work and character presentation, is a perfectly valid exercise. I'd add that Martin does something similar with numerous characters throughout the series, not just those you seem to believe are a complaint about my favorites.

[Florina Stark]

jblair, on 12 December 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

How does this work, considering most people here generally like Margaery, who does an amazing job of playing the game while still remaining within the traditional female role?

I think it has to do with Margaery's implied cleverness. We are given clues that while Marg is very much a southron Lady, shes also rather shrewed and calculated, giving the impression to us readers, that shes pretty strong in her own right. I actually think this is why people stopped appreciating Cersei once she got a POV.  We get the impression that Cersei is actually on top of her game and very apt at scheming. In her POVs, we see that she blunders through her schemes when the checks on her power are removed. I think this is actually less about her role as a woman but a more meta concept. That meta concept being that Cersei, one of the seemingly biggest game players is actually prone to massive miscalculation and lack of empathy for everyone around her. To make her less of a Big Bad, and more into a Villain Protagonist who makes mistakes along the way. (ETA: A form of Badass Decay)

Since Marg isnt given a POV, we dont know for certain whats going on with her. So its easy for readers to try to fill in the blanks and come to a conclusion about her being a pretty clever character.

jons nissa, on 12 December 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

if i'm going to be honest, i'm not sure the problem is that of the traditional femine role.

Indeed. While there are undoubtedly some who dislike characters like Sansa because of that, my own personal reasons for not being a huge Sansa fan arent because shes "girly". Its because i simply cannot relate to her. The things she does arent conclusions i myself would arrive to. Like, seeing how im one of those "I take no shit" type people, characters like Sansa tend to get under my skin a bit, to the point where im all "hey...time to show these assholes whats what!" I personally dont give a fuck that Sansa likes girly things and accepts her traditional role. Plenty of other female characters do just that and are still very strong in my opinion. I just dont "get" Sansa like i do other characters. Catelyn, i have a hard time relating to as well. But i can sympathize with both characters. Like, i find what Sansa goes through to be quite horrible and want her out of that mess and quick.

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I think that our likes and dislikes of characters have far less to do with the writing the author delivers but with ourselves. Whom we like or dislike as a fictional person tells a lot about us, how our personal experiences are mirrored in a character,

Yes, very much so. Its why i love Arya so much. I see so much of myself in her that it gets hella scary sometimes. Like, even the things she says are things i would have sad at that age. Her mindset is like....omfg levels of similar to mine own especially at her age. I was the "tomboy", the "not-so-pretty one" compared to my sister, etc. So yeah, i "get" Arya. Its similar with Jon. I relate to Jon because of a lot of his values. Jon is shown that he does not judge based on superficial matters. (that again, is one reason i cant seem to "get" Sansa) Jon often sticks to his guns and sees people for who they are. He ran to the aid of Sam because he didnt like the way people were treating him. He grew to love Ygritte because of her nature, etc.

One reason i like characters like Rhaegar is because of his mystique. I like whats implied about him. The great looking dude who has a sensitive side and junk. Varys, its the same. He keeps me guessing. So yeah, i really think that our favorite characters tell us a lot about ourselves.

Edited by Florina Stark, 12 December 2012 - 05:41 PM.

[Woman of War]

Oh yes, I am a big Varys fan. He might be as detestable as the Stasi, secret service guys in the former GDR, but then some of them really believed in their mission. But he is so much more fascinating.
Off topic, sorry

[Mirijam]

Éadaoin, on 12 December 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

I am a bit unclear as to what you mean by this but am curious. How has GRRM given Arya and the men easier ways out of their dilemmas?

Well, Arya gets help to escape from Kings Landing (both Yoren and Bloodraven), Sansa has to stay. Arya gets a fairy godmother in the shape of Faceless Man, Sansa gets ser Dontos who works for Littlefinger and Tyrells who seek to use her. Arya gets to order assassinations of her enemies, Sansa has to keep her curtsey armor up at all times as her only defense.
Arya still has a direwolf, Sansa lost hers. Later, Arya will warg a cat to get out of being blind, but no supernatural help for Sansa (yet) etc.

As for Tyrion, Jon, Robb and Jaime (people who I thought about when writing 'men') they DO have a massive advantage of age, education, battle training, and what law allows them to do.
Remember that Jaime is too valuable to be exchanged for the girls. Later, even without his sword hand, nobody messes with him.
Tyrion, even though he is too small to be effective in battle, still gets to stand-in for king's Hand. What of Catelyn? Where does she belong?

That was my point.

Woman of War, on 12 December 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Hm, I do not think this is the problem here. Actually there are far less characters who are magical than not and many very important characters are (so far) not magical at all: Jaime, Tyrion, Asha, Cersei. Cat herself has no "badass" attributes at all, nor has Arianne.  And Sam, one of my faves, is the epitome of brave without being badass. I love him because he is so very average, apart from being quite clever

Jaime, Asha, Tyrion can pass as genre insiders because they are fighters, or do some fighting. Fighter is a character in fantasy.
Sam is brave, and I love him to bits, but he is a lot alike that other Sam in LOTR, or Bilbo.
Arianne is a princess (compare to Leia, for example), so she still belongs, even is she doesn't fit all of the checklist.
Cat and Cersei are worth examining though. I don't know if there are similar characters elsewhere.

Of course, I do not mean to say that they are the same as generic fantasy characters, but that on the first read we still have a mental drawer to put them in.
Sansa is a cypher for readers, IMO.

Edited by Mirijam, 12 December 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Catelyn and Sansa his least favourite characters? Well, I am absolutely nothing like GRRM then. Sansa is by far my favourite character together with Arya; and sometimes I even put Arya second place. I mean, liking Arya isn't that hard, for reasons already stated. She is, at 9 years old, a rulebreaker in society. She does not conform to society's norms and is a very modern character. People root when she kills people, precisely because she is breaking every female rule in Westerosi society. She obviously cares for lowborn people and doesn't care about the difference between highborn and lowborn people; something which is quite normal in (western) culture as of today, but not in Westerosi society. She takes matters more clearly in her own hand when she goes with Yoren, learns how to survive between the lot that is destined for the Night's Watch, befriends a Faceless Man, getting able to fight her way out of things, thereby killing adult guards or soldiers and so on. Her journey through the whole of Westeros and the things she is put through are almost unbelieveable. Gregor Clegane, Harrenhal, the Brave Companions. Everything she does, she handles well in people's eyes. She immediately knows who people are and despises the people we despise - Joffrey, Cersei etc. She takes care of herself and her fate, especially when she decides not to kill Sandor Clegane and is going to Braavos to become a Faceless Man. Again, her training there and how she handles that is almost unbelieveable for the 11-year-old she is at that time, she still is breaking every rule and sticks to her own, true nature and again, that is in a huge part responsible for why people like her so much - and why she is one of GRRM's favourite characters.

And then there is Sansa. A girl who grew up with stories about honorable pretty knights and princes who would love you forever and you would live happily ever after. She conforms to the rules of her society, excels in female things such as singing and dancing and sewing which earns her the enmity of her sister Arya - something people can relate to. She seems to be shallow, sometimes even arrogant towards her sister who is, as explained above, likeable in every way. Sansa has her head full of stories - something people nowadays cannot understand, since it's almost a sin to believe in stories about pretty knights, even when you were brought up with them. She dreams about getting away from the North to the South, where everything seems better and more beautiful to her. She trusts people we don't trust - Joffrey and Cersei. She betrays her father by telling the Queen goodbye - people conveniently forget the fact that Ned Stark himself told Cersei of his plans. Even after Lady's death, she still trusts Joffrey and Cersei, simply because her head is still full of stories and she still longs for a nice Southron life, away from the cold North, which the Old Gods and the New forbid. And GRRM I think as well, since, I'd say, the North is more written to be liked than the scheming South with people like Cersei, Varys, Littlefinger, the Tyrells etc. The North is portrayed as good, while the South is subject to that goodness. The fact that Sansa wants to get away from that... Well, you do the math. And after her father's death, she still didn't seem to learn much - she trusts Dontos and Littlefinger (again, the Old Gods forbid this!) which earns her the marriage with the alltimefavourite Tyrion Lannister. She doesn't take matters in her own hand, always hides behind her annoying courtesy armor, instead of finally saying what is really going on. Being in the Vale now, she still doesn't take matters in her own hand, she doesn't seem to have learned anything.

Compare this to the likeable-written Arya and one could easily see why Sansa is a least-favourite of GRRM and Arya a most-favourite.

[AureliaC]

I agree with those who believe that it's a good bet to say that in part this likeability factor is due to the fact that Martin didn't have the whole series figured out.
When ASOIAF was still meant to be a trilogy he couldn't possibly have imagined to develop complex (and different) trajectories for so many characters. He probably had clear in mind that the roles of Dany, Arya, Bran, Jon and Tyrion were going to be extremely important. If so, the reader had to be invested in these characters to want to read the rest of the story. I also kind of think that he had some kind of artistic pride and wanted to show off his creatures. Just as when someone is reading our favorite book and we (or at least me and my sisters do) say I can't wait until you meet X, it's not difficult to see why it would work also for authors. So Arya, Tyrion and Jon sparkle clearly from their first meeting. And what better way to sparkle than having other characters that compare unfavorably.
So we get Catelyn and Sansa on one side, and Jon, Arya, Bran and Robb on the other and supporting Team B is easy. And on the Lannister's side Jamie, Cersei and Joffrey vs Tyrion. Team B wins in this case too and since Tyrion is a Lannister and perceived immediately as an enemy, let's add the fact that he helps Jon and Bran so that we fully cheer for him.
But then, given this first attachment to the main characters, the series grew and he started to develop the others fully, and overturning first impressions. I am actually quite shocked at how good GRRM is in pushing the readers to change their mind about a character when he puts his mind to it, Sansa, Jamie and Theon being the main examples. Nonetheless I also agree that maybe he underestimated the power of the first impression on the majority of readers, those who don't dissect too much.

[Ludd]

Sansa fits into a very defined (and very real) character type.  The slightly spoiled, rich girl, tweeny still very much at the air head stage.

Ever been to a girls private school - Sansa and Jeyne are just the typical girls of the era - giggling in the corner and discussing boys, while also impressing the teachers.  They are concius snob, discussing clothes others have and using terms like "povvo"  For Austalians (and others) she is a little like Jaim'e in Chris Little's Summer heits high - or at leastlike one of her friends.

Arya is the girl in the top maths class who joins the greens and spends her weekends handing out leaflets to save the whales. Her friends are the nerdy loners while Sansa mixes it with the good looking jocks.  These characters exist today.

I suspect that Martin had some run ins with the "cool" girls in his youth and Sansa is the outcome. Life and hardship mellow these "cool" girls so at 30 he may meet them again and no longer hate them

Myrcella is in between the two with I suspect a slight leaning to Arya is she was braver.

Cat is brilliantly written.  I actually liked her the GoT. It was not until later (as Lady SH) I realised what a nasty bit of work she was.

[manisagiddything]

Kittykatknits, on 12 December 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

an attempt to understand what Martin is doing as a writer, in an effort to better understand the work and character presentation, is a perfectly valid exercise.

^ Totally Agree.


While I agree that our preferences for characters say more about us then the author, and that these preferences are a valid thing to explore, I also think that the question of which characters the author wants us to prefer is equally valid, and that the two questions can co-exist.  What's most interesting to me is when the author's intention for a character doesn't match the reader's response-like when GRRM states that he's surprised by the negative reactions to Catelyn.  I have always thought that he intended us to root for her-Sansa in AGOT I do think was set up as a foil for the rest of the Starks, and Arya specifically.  What's also really interesting to me is that people perceive Arya and Cat in such different lights even though they share some core characteristics-impulsive, strong willed, intuitive.

Éadaoin, on 12 December 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Interesting that you say this. I have always wondered why I identified much more with Sansa when I do share some of the more modern sensibilities of Arya. Perhaps the "outsiders" bit is important. Unlike Arya, I never felt like an outsider growing up. I fit in pretty well, like Sansa did. Hmm. Interesting to think about.

The 'outsider' bit is the main reason I related to Arya, but I still identified more with Sansa for her idealism and innocence, because I was also that way at that age.  Interestingly, I have an older sister and I feel like we are both half Sansa/ half Arya...She is much more like Arya, but was rewarded and was more popular for being that way, where as I am more like Sansa, but I was also the one always trying to 'measure up'.( got a lot of 'you should do as your sister does' sort of messages)... but honestly, the Sansa/Arya dynamic was the thing that drew me into the first book.  I think their characterization as siblings is so strong, and though it's natural to pit them against each other, I think it's really interesting to consider them as a unit.

Edited by manisagiddything, 12 December 2012 - 06:47 PM.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Why the sympathy? Well probably because it helps make things more interesting.

Take Theon, I had a great fun hating him! and I have to say I never thought I would sympathize with Theon and thought he would deserve whatever happened to him but I enjoy his arc so much more now that I do .

Sansa and Arya, would their relationships or character development be as interesting if they were just alike and got along wonderfully? And how could anyone not sympathize with Sansa after Ned died and all she went through in aGoT and after? Sure you can point fingers at Sansa but you definitely can more with Arya or any character for that matter.

Jaime, much more interesting with the flip. Tyrion, I could not imagine him being written any other way.
Catelyn, love her or hate her Cat evokes passion and I think she is a masterpiece!

Some had to start with sympathy and some not but atleast Martin is changing it up and making crazy!
So what he has favorites, I read it's because they are easier to write (and I can't blame him there) and the ones with more magic are his least favorite because they are more difficult to write Bran imparticular and if I remember right maybe Dany.

eta: btw interesting thread!

Edited by Elaena Targaryen, 12 December 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[King.In.Yellow]

Sarosh, on 11 December 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

(though he's also said that Sam is closer to an actual author avatar sort of type)

Lots of people assume this, because Sam is fat, just like GRRM. I don't really know how GRRM functions, but from personal experience, I can tell you that being fat can make you an outcast of society and very resentful... even full of murderous rage, kinda like Tyrion. It wouldn't surprise me if a wise-cracking outcast with a taste for violence is an author avatar.