28 replies to this topic

[jblair]

1. After Jeor went to the Wall, Jorah was the Lord of Bear Island and no longer answerable to Jeor. He became the owner of Longclaw.
2. Bear Island is relatively impoverished, even by Northern standards. Jorah was having major trouble paying for his wife Lynesse's expensive tastes.
3. So much trouble that he turned to the extremely serious crime of slavery, which is punishable by death.
4. Over the years, Tyrion Lannister had been willing to spend vast sums of money to acquire a Valyrian steel sword.
5. For some reason, Jorah is fine to destroy his honor by trading in slaves, but apparently not willing to sell a sword that will enable he and his wife to live in luxury for the rest of their days.
5. When Jorah is charged with slavery, he flees to the Free Cities...inexplicably, without Longclaw. He then cannot support Lynesse with a sellsword career, (and doesn't even have his ultra-uber weapon, which would certainly help his chosen career). During this dire stretch of his life, at least he could have sold the sword for tremendous money. Why would he leave it behind on purpose? And if not on purpose, how would he have had time to gather his wife before fleeing, yet not his sword?


Are these just a bunch of bad plot contrivances? None of this ever made sense to me, except as an extremely implausible way for Jon to get a sweet weapon.

[Mr Motte]

I feel like Jorah has some sense of honor when it came to Longclaw. He'd already ashamed his family enough... selling Longclaw would be like slapping his family in the face, then feeding them to bears.

Not to mention, I doubt many traders came by Bear Island that could afford something like a Valyrian Steel sword.

[Apple Martini]

I don't see it as a contrivance at all — rather it just serves to demonstrate how proud families are of their heirlooms and the significance attached to them. That Jorah never sold or stole Longclaw, even though he ended up slaving, speaks more about the incredibly intangible value of Longclaw than it does about a plot contrivance.

As for Jon getting a sweet weapon, there were surely other ways to do that, if that's the only narrative purpose here.

[Dolorous Nedd]

Maybe he felt the least he could do was honor his father by leaving it.

[jblair]

I agree that the "keeping the sword in the family" angle has merit.

However, if House Mormont was so concerned with the sword legacy, why did Jeor just give it to a random NW Stark bastard rather than to Maege? Sure, she prefers a mace, but what of her daughters, and their sons (if for some reason, the sword "needs a man" lol)? Not to mention, Jeor is willing to just give the sword away rather than have Maege sell it to pay off the massive debt Jorah left behind.

Apparently old Jeor thinks less of the sword's heirloom qualities than Jorah did?

[Lion of Judah]

Jorah never struck me as a foolish man but his marriage situation contradicts that, I believe it was mentioned that Tywin offered to buy swords from other houses but the lords were more inclined to give up their daughters rather than sell their ancestral blades. It doesn't surprise me that Jorah sort any avenue other than selling the sword, it really was never an option to him.

[Melonica Stormborn]

I always thought that Jorah left Longclaw because he felt that he is not worthy of the sword anymore. Of course the "keeping the family heirloom" part is also there - a Valyrian steel sword is not something you would want to sell since it's a source of pride for the family. As a criminal and exiled lord, Jorah would not take it with him since it is not his to take or sell anymore (since he's not the head of House Mormont anymore).

The Old Bear might have felt that Jon is worthy of the sword, and he owes him a life debt. He also likes Jon. At that point Jon will be the closest thing to a son he will get, so why not give it to him?

ETA: If I remember correctly, Jeor's sister brought Longclaw at Castle Black, so I guess the Mormont girls don't want it.

Edited by Melonica Stormborn, 12 December 2012 - 10:46 PM.

[Apple Martini]

jblair, on 12 December 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

I agree that the "keeping the sword in the family" angle has merit.

However, if House Mormont was so concerned with the sword legacy, why did Jeor just give it to a random NW Stark bastard rather than to Maege? Sure, she prefers a mace, but what of her daughters, and their sons (if for some reason, the sword "needs a man" lol)? Not to mention, Jeor is willing to just give the sword away rather than have Maege sell it to pay off the massive debt Jorah left behind.

Apparently old Jeor thinks less of the sword's heirloom qualities than Jorah did?

You have it backward, I'm afraid. Jorah left it on Bear Island and Maege brought it to Jeor on the Wall. Maege had the opportunity to keep it and instead chose to give it to Jeor. At that point, in my eyes, it ceased being a "Mormont" sword, as Jeor was no longer legally or techincally a "Mormont" in the feudal sense, and as such he was free to give the sword to whoever he wanted.

[Fire Eater]

Apple Martini, on 12 December 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

I don't see it as a contrivance at all — rather it just serves to demonstrate how proud families are of their heirlooms and the significance attached to them. That Jorah never sold or stole Longclaw, even though he ended up slaving, speaks more about the incredibly intangible value of Longclaw than it does about a plot contrivance.

As for Jon getting a sweet weapon, there were surely other ways to do that, if that's the only narrative purpose here.

Longclaw is more than just a Valyrian steel sword, being passed from father to son for generations, making it something of a family legacy. In a sense, it belongs not to Jorah but the Mormont family as whole.

Would anyone here sell family heirlooms just to appease someone like Lynesse?

[GallowsKnight]

jblair, on 12 December 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

However, if House Mormont was so concerned with the sword legacy, why did Jeor just give it to a random NW Stark bastard rather than to Maege?

Because he saved his life from a reanimated corpse. The first hard evidence that the Night Watch and Mankind's greatest enemy had returned. That family heirlooms are meaningless in the face of utter annihilation from unfathomable evil?

[Winterfellian]

I never saw it as a contrivance. In ASOS Tyrion remarks that it had always irked his father that House Lannister didn't have a Valyrian steel sword. To quote Tyrion:

Quote

Thrice at least Lord Tywin had offered to buy Valyrian longswords from impoverished lesser houses, but his advances had always been firmly rebuffled. The little lordings would gladly part with their daughters should a Lannister come asking, but they chereished their old family swords.

I think the worth of this swords cannot be measure in terms of costs by their owners, but in terms of value.

ETA: They might be costly but their value is priceless. My guess is that for a Lord and owner of a Valyrian blade is next to impossible to put a price on his sword because it will be like putting a price to his heritage and the history of his House. That's why Jorah left it. He wasn't as lost to honor as to take it with him.

Edited by Winterfellian, 12 December 2012 - 11:05 PM.

[Sven Wonders]

The starks had "ICE". ice is gone, melted down and split up into two swords. The starks will need a valyrian sword in the story line. but I think jeor gave his sword to jon because the old bear was the lord commander he had given up his old family for a new one. He was grooming jon for command and jon became a son to him.(also jon saved him from the whtie walker)

[Apple Martini]

^ And for a lot of these families, the Valyrian sword is all they have. They might be impoverished, but they have the sword. They might sell the sword, but what happens when the money runs out? Then they're still impoverished, with no sword. They're status symbols, and Tywin's offers remind me of that saying, "They know the price of everything and the value of nothing."

[jblair]

Apple Martini, on 12 December 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

You have it backward, I'm afraid. Jorah left it on Bear Island and Maege brought it to Jeor on the Wall. Maege had the opportunity to keep it and instead chose to give it to Jeor. At that point, in my eyes, it ceased being a "Mormont" sword, as Jeor was no longer legally or techincally a "Mormont" in the feudal sense, and as such he was free to give the sword to whoever he wanted.

You're right I had the giving portion backwards, but the fact remains that the Mormonts as a whole apparently didn't think the sword had much heirloom value, since it was essentially sent to the void.

[Artos Stark]

I still believe that Longclaw is actually Dark Sister, I have no evidence to this it is just a feeling that I've always had.

[ManyFacedOne]

Artos Stark, on 12 December 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

I have no evidence to this it is just a feeling that I've always had.

Dark Sister is a longsword, slender and fit for the hand of a woman -- all something Longclaw is not. Also, LC is the Mormont's family sword, one that's been in their possession for centuries.

[Artos Stark]

ManyFacedOne, on 12 December 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Dark Sister is a longsword, slender and fit for the hand of a woman -- all something Longclaw is not. Also, LC is the Mormont's family sword, one that's been in their possession for centuries.

Oh crap Blackfyre was the bastard sword not Dark Sister.  Damn!  There goes my crackpot theory lol

[GallowsKnight]

jblair, on 12 December 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

You're right I had the giving portion backwards, but the fact remains that the Mormonts as a whole apparently didn't think the sword had much heirloom value, since it was essentially sent to the void.

I don't think the sword was meant to stay at the wall. Jeor would have likely arranged for it to be returned when he died if possible.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

Jon needs a Hoopla Sword to save the day in the end. it befells on Longclaw.

Although, don't forget the NW is not the meritocracy its PR sell (well, that's thematic too, the King and the Kingsguard PR is quite quickly destroyed in the reader's mind by Fat King Bob and the Kingslayer). Nobles have it easy at the Wall. And when the Watch is weak, nobles trained at arms, reading and writing, they got it even easier. Jeor's deathwish, completely unrealistic as it seems to be, is to have his son take the Black.  By giving his family sword to his steward, it also groom Jon for LC if he dies. Thus if Jorah finally arrive at the Wall. his chances of raising quickly in the hierarchy is quite high. And if he try to be LC, it will be even easier, his own father having been LC not so long ago (and quite appreciated apparently until his desastrous ranging), and the LC's blade being Mormont's blade.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

jblair, on 12 December 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

I agree that the "keeping the sword in the family" angle has merit.

However, if House Mormont was so concerned with the sword legacy, why did Jeor just give it to a random NW Stark bastard rather than to Maege? Sure, she prefers a mace, but what of her daughters, and their sons (if for some reason, the sword "needs a man" lol)? Not to mention, Jeor is willing to just give the sword away rather than have Maege sell it to pay off the massive debt Jorah left behind.

Apparently old Jeor thinks less of the sword's heirloom qualities than Jorah did?

The Starks won Bear Island from the Iron Men (I believe it was from them) in a wrestling match. They gave the Island to the Mormonts. Jeor had no sons, why not give it to a Stark, he would be nobody without the Starks.