16 replies to this topic

[Frey family reunion]

Crackpot theory with very little to go on, but Nightfall is a Valyrian sword possessed by House Harlaw.  I assume that any Valyrian swords possessed by the Iron Islanders is probably the result of plunder.  Nightfall is said to have a moonstone pommel.  It's my understanding from the Dunk and Egg series that a moonstone is supposed to be a favored sign of Bloodraven, the last known holder of Dark Sister.  (I believe that a popular theory that Maynard Plumm is Bloodraven under a glamor cites a moonstone broach worn by Maynard).  Any chance that Nightfall is plunder taken from a ship leaving from Shadow Tower?

[Michael Snow]

I don't remember anything specifically contradicting that, so... I'm going with maybe. I like the idea though, and now that you bring it up, I bet all Ironborn Valyrian swords were acquired by force. I mean, it doesn't sound like a respectable Ironborn Lord is going to cough up enough gold for a world class sword. Sounds like he'd get laughed at by the other Ironborn, no matter how nice it was. Gotta pay the Iron Price for something like that.

Hm, afterthought. Could have been a gift, maybe from a Targaryen king or another Lord some generations back?

[GallowsKnight]

Could be, could be. I think it's more likely it's a random Valyrian sword. There's supposedly a hundred or so floating around Westeros and a thousand odd in Essos, if I remember correctly from one of Quentyn Martells chapters, where it describes how rare Caggo's Valryian steel Arakh is.

[Fire Eater]

The only way for the Harlaws to get Dark Sister would be if they took it off Bloodraven's corpse, which seems unlikely as Bloodraven is still alive. Nightfall also has a moonstone pommel, which isn't found in Dark Sister's description. Victarion's POV stated that Nightfall was as storied as Red Rain, so the sword has been in the possession of the Harlaws longer than a hundred years.

[Frey family reunion]

Fire Eater, on 14 December 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

The only way for the Harlaws to get Dark Sister would be if they took it off Bloodraven's corpse, which seems unlikely as Bloodraven is still alive. Nightfall also has a moonstone pommel, which isn't found in Dark Sister's description. Victarion's POV stated that Nightfall was as storied as Red Rain, so the sword has been in the possession of the Harlaws longer than a hundred years.

Has there been a specific description of Nightbringer in the books?

When Bran came across Bloodraven in the cave, I don't recall that he was described as having possession of the sword, so it must have gone somewhere.

Just because the sword had a "storied" history doesn't mean the history had to be entirely with the Harlaws.

[Longspear Ryk]

Frey family reunion, on 12 December 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

Crackpot theory with very little to go on, but Nightfall is a Valyrian sword possessed by House Harlaw.  I assume that any Valyrian swords possessed by the Iron Islanders is probably the result of plunder.  Nightfall is said to have a moonstone pommel.  It's my understanding from the Dunk and Egg series that a moonstone is supposed to be a favored sign of Bloodraven, the last known holder of Dark Sister.  (I believe that a popular theory that Maynard Plumm is Bloodraven under a glamor cites a moonstone broach worn by Maynard).  Any chance that Nightfall is plunder taken from a ship leaving from Shadow Tower?

I think we can accept that bloodraven glamoured himself as maynard plumm as fact

[Starfell]

Interesting theory, although I'm inclined to think it's probably a different sword, albeit another one acquired in combat. The line about it being "as storied as Red Rain" implies that the blade's history is well known whereas I'd only expect its name to be changed if it was lost and found again by someone who didn't know the original name, or if it had been reforged, but that's just my impression

[Fire Eater]

Frey family reunion, on 25 December 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Has there been a specific description of Nightbringer in the books?

When Bran came across Bloodraven in the cave, I don't recall that he was described as having possession of the sword, so it must have gone somewhere.

Just because the sword had a "storied" history doesn't mean the history had to be entirely with the Harlaws.

The Harlaws would have to have stolen it from the Targs to obtain it, which is highly unlikely as again, it's last known owner, Bloodraven, didn't die in battle against the Ironborn, and no recorded Targaryens died in battle against them.

Edited by Fire Eater, 26 December 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[Summer is Ending]

GallowsKnight, on 13 December 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

Could be, could be. I think it's more likely it's a random Valyrian sword. There's supposedly a hundred or so floating around Westeros and a thousand odd in Essos, if I remember correctly from one of Quentyn Martells chapters, where it describes how rare Caggo's Valryian steel Arakh is.

At long last, Father? Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone. It had always irked his father that none belonged to House Lannister.

And yeah valyrian arakhs are even rarer.

There were hundreds of Valyrian longswords in the world, but only a handful of Valyrian arakhs.

[Top12Gun]

This is going off a lot of assumptions, but you could make a circumstantial case for it.

[Frey family reunion]

Fire Eater, on 25 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

The Harlaws would have to have stolen it from the Targs to obtain it, which is highly unlikely as again, it's last known owner, Bllodraven, didn't die in battle against the Ironborn, and no recorded Targaryens died in battle against them.

I get the impression that when Bloodraven got sent to the wall he was pretty much alienated from the rest of the Targs (other than Aemon who would have had no use for the sword).  Now I am assuming that he brought Dark Sister with him. After Bloodraven disappears over the wall maybe the Night's Watch sent  the sword back to King's Landing by boat  which then was intercepted by an Iron Island pirate (Harlaw I assume).  Like I said pretty much just pure speculation on my part.

[Arkantos]

I think that Bloodraven probably still has the sword and it'll be used by Hodor instead of that rusted pile of crap.

[GallowsKnight]

A thought occurred to me. If people can be glamoured to alter their appearance could a sword be too?  Maybe that's how it's hidden.

Then it could be in plan sight any where. Even on the iron throne.

[Arkantos]

That'd be a cool idea, get a ruby encrusted valyrian sword and put a glamour on it to look like a regular sword, it'd give you a real edge when people don't expect the speed and sharpness of valyrian steel.
You could do all sorts of crap, put a glamour to make it look longer/shorter/thinner, to look like Lightbringer etc.

[Fire Eater]

Frey family reunion, on 25 December 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

I get the impression that when Bloodraven got sent to the wall he was pretty much alienated from the rest of the Targs (other than Aemon who would have had no use for the sword).  Now I am assuming that he brought Dark Sister with him. After Bloodraven disappears over the wall maybe the Night's Watch sent  the sword back to King's Landing by boat  which then was intercepted by an Iron Island pirate (Harlaw I assume).  Like I said pretty much just pure speculation on my part.

The Iron Islands are on the opposite side of Westeros from the way from Eastwatch to KL. No Ironman would be foolish enough to risk piracy that far North on the opposite coast of Westeros, especially with the royal fleet anchored.

[GallowsKnight]

Arkantos, on 26 December 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

That'd be a cool idea, get a ruby encrusted valyrian sword and put a glamour on it to look like a regular sword, it'd give you a real edge when people don't expect the speed and sharpness of valyrian steel.
You could do all sorts of crap, put a glamour to make it look longer/shorter/thinner, to look like Lightbringer etc.

I guess the advantage is the other way though. Plan steel that looks far more frightening.

[Lion of Judah]

This would be a stretch in truth, I don't doubt that the sword was taken from BR when Maekar tossed him in the black cells. It is likely that Aegon gave it back to him when he was sent to the wall though, exactly how House Harlaw would come into possession of the blade then is near impossible.

Edited by Lion Of Judah, 26 December 2012 - 01:31 AM.