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R+L=J v. 36


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491 replies to this topic

#1 Stubby

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:40 PM

Carry on.

#2 MtnLion

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:31 PM

Tag. /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

#3 Belandra Waters

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:10 PM

Copying this over because it's such a great resource!

Thank you to SFDanny for all your work on this

A little while ago a poster asked for links to the old threads on this topic and I noticed that they aren't all linked to the preceding or succeeding ones and can be hard to find. So as a public service here they are in all their glory:

I think the name changes in the threads, especially the mistaken numbering of threads 13-15, may have made it difficult for people to find all of them. Anyway, hope that helps.



#4 Twinslayer

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:53 PM

Copying this over because it's such a great resource!

Thank you to SFDanny for all your work on this

Wonder what ever happened to Stark Future (OP on thread number 1).

#5 Winds of Winter blow cold

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:26 AM

I...got nothing. /leaving.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':leaving:' />

#6 Old-Growth

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:15 AM

Belandra:

I liked "Howland's Hermits" for "Rhaegar the Eighth, I am, I am", esp. since the Crannogmen could be regarded as hermits of a sort, tho' collectively not individually.

But I am stymied on "Love is Love, Not Fade Away". "Buddy Holly and the Grumpkins" came to mind, but that doesn't seem right. "I'm gonna tell you how it's gonna be/You're gonna give your love to me" seems a reasonable parody of Rhaegar's attitude, but the band title still needs to be tweaked to fit ASoIaF.

Any thoughts?

[I once modified the first two lines to make a new corporate theme song: "I'm gonna tell you how it's gonna be/You're gonna pee in that cup for me"; this seemed to fit given the insistence on drug tests that corporations, at least in the US, are requiring of their employees.]

#7 Revan Baratheon

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:05 PM

ARRRGH HOW MANY TIMES GUYS?!!?!?

#8 Belandra Waters

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:02 PM

Belandra:

I liked "Howland's Hermits" for "Rhaegar the Eighth, I am, I am", esp. since the Crannogmen could be regarded as hermits of a sort, tho' collectively not individually.

But I am stymied on "Love is Love, Not Fade Away". "Buddy Holly and the Grumpkins" came to mind, but that doesn't seem right. "I'm gonna tell you how it's gonna be/You're gonna give your love to me" seems a reasonable parody of Rhaegar's attitude, but the band title still needs to be tweaked to fit ASoIaF.

Any thoughts?

[I once modified the first two lines to make a new corporate theme song: "I'm gonna tell you how it's gonna be/You're gonna pee in that cup for me"; this seemed to fit given the insistence on drug tests that corporations, at least in the US, are requiring of their employees.]


Hahaha...funny!

I could see a wandering minstrel named Budys Hill or Budeth Tully, or with a nod to the Stones, Mychel Jaeger.... /dunno.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunno:' />

#9 RumHam

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:30 PM

This must have been discussed in the 35 other threads but I'm not about to go read them all, so bear with me.

It seems to me that if you guys figured this out, SOMEONE in Westeros probably at least has considered the possibility. I assume Ned's sister wasn't seen in public for the last six months of her life or someone would have know she was pregnant. I'm not really sure what Targaryen loyalists think of Rheagar's relationship with Lyanna (I assume after Robert's victory it would be risky to suggest that he hadn't abducted and raped her.) He did crown her queen of love in beauty in a very public setting. Surely someone must have considered "where were those three other Kingsguard members?" Do you guys think Varys might know? How exactly did Robert think Lyanna had died?

#10 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:54 PM

ARRRGH HOW MANY TIMES GUYS?!!?!?

As many times as it takes. There are still unbelievers out there, you know.

This must have been discussed in the 35 other threads but I'm not about to go read them all, so bear with me.

It seems to me that if you guys figured this out, SOMEONE in Westeros probably at least has considered the possibility. I assume Ned's sister wasn't seen in public for the last six months of her life or someone would have know she was pregnant. I'm not really sure what Targaryen loyalists think of Rheagar's relationship with Lyanna (I assume after Robert's victory it would be risky to suggest that he hadn't abducted and raped her.) He did crown her queen of love in beauty in a very public setting. Surely someone must have considered "where were those three other Kingsguard members?" Do you guys think Varys might know? How exactly did Robert think Lyanna had died?

There are some who definitely know, yes. Howland Reed for certain, Wylla or whatever wetnurse/midwife/servant who was with them. My assumption is that some might have figured it out. Ned's clash with the missing KG, specifically Arthur Dayne, is also known as evidenced by Cersei's comments while they talked in the godswood.

The beauty of it, though, is that Ned has a very strong reputation of honor and honesty. His honesty is so well known and respected that if he says that Jon is his son, then no one is going to question it. It's the perfect curtain in which to hide Jon (in plain view) and also to prevent anyone from really questioning him about where and how Lyanna died. It helps that his movements prior to and during the war offers extra fuel for the rumor mill.

#11 Twinslayer

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:07 PM

This must have been discussed in the 35 other threads but I'm not about to go read them all, so bear with me.

It seems to me that if you guys figured this out, SOMEONE in Westeros probably at least has considered the possibility. I assume Ned's sister wasn't seen in public for the last six months of her life or someone would have know she was pregnant. I'm not really sure what Targaryen loyalists think of Rheagar's relationship with Lyanna (I assume after Robert's victory it would be risky to suggest that he hadn't abducted and raped her.) He did crown her queen of love in beauty in a very public setting. Surely someone must have considered "where were those three other Kingsguard members?" Do you guys think Varys might know? How exactly did Robert think Lyanna had died?

This is a great question, particularly the last sentence. During their conversation in the Winterfell crypts, Ned invites a discussion about how Lyanna died, but he shuts down the discussion of who Jon's mother is.

I believe that when they look at Lyanna's statue, Ned just up and volunteers that he was "present when she died," or something to that effect. Robert's response is that he swore to kill Rhaegar for what he did to Lyanna.

I have long wondered what Ned told Robert about how Lyanna died. But it seems clear that whatever Ned said about it, it led Robert to believe that Rhaegar caused her death.

#12 SFDanny

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:31 PM

This must have been discussed in the 35 other threads but I'm not about to go read them all, so bear with me.

It seems to me that if you guys figured this out, SOMEONE in Westeros probably at least has considered the possibility. I assume Ned's sister wasn't seen in public for the last six months of her life or someone would have know she was pregnant. I'm not really sure what Targaryen loyalists think of Rheagar's relationship with Lyanna (I assume after Robert's victory it would be risky to suggest that he hadn't abducted and raped her.) He did crown her queen of love in beauty in a very public setting. Surely someone must have considered "where were those three other Kingsguard members?" Do you guys think Varys might know? How exactly did Robert think Lyanna had died?


I think Ned goes to Starfall for much more than to deliver Dawn to the Daynes. I think his primary reason for going there is to provide cover for Jon. He does so in that he provides a dual story for anyone who questions Jon is his son. He knows that others will know of his attraction to Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal, and he knows Wylla will claim the child as her own from Ned. The former, always with a refusal by Ned to comment and an angry response to protect her honor, is fodder for everyone who wants "the secret lover story." With the latter, he only tells Robert about Wylla, and Robert is more than willing to believe his friend succumbs to the same temptations he does, if only for one time. The two stories work together where if one didn't exist it would be easier to discount either one. He needs the Daynes to go along with this, and he needs them to provide Wylla with a refuge from those who might come looking to find out more. When the Daynes go along, it works. For most people anyway. I suspect Varys suspects. He just can't prove it, and fighting with Robert without proof, especially about Ned, is a sure road to disaster.

#13 RumHam

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:34 PM

As many times as it takes. There are still unbelievers out there, you know.


There are some who definitely know, yes. Howland Reed for certain, Wylla or whatever wetnurse/midwife/servant who was with them. My assumption is that some might have figured it out. Ned's clash with the missing KG, specifically Arthur Dayne, is also known as evidenced by Cersei's comments while they talked in the godswood.

The beauty of it, though, is that Ned has a very strong reputation of honor and honesty. His honesty is so well known and respected that if he says that Jon is his son, then no one is going to question it. It's the perfect curtain in which to hide Jon (in plain view) and also to prevent anyone from really questioning him about where and how Lyanna died. It helps that his movements prior to and during the war offers extra fuel for the rumor mill.


I knew Reed knows, maybe Wylla (but why would you tell a nursemaid...)

I'm also not convinced that Ned's honor and honesty were so widely known and admired. By those who knew him well or the people of the north, sure. Most people had no problem accepting that he had fathered a bastard. When he was declared a traitor you never heard the smallfolk expressing shock that the "honorable Lord Stark" would do such a thing. The people who would be piecing this theory together probably would not have disregarded it on the basis that "Ned Stark was to honest to lie."

#14 LadyMary

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:38 PM

This is a great question, particularly the last sentence. During their conversation in the Winterfell crypts, Ned invites a discussion about how Lyanna died, but he shuts down the discussion of who Jon's mother is.

I believe that when they look at Lyanna's statue, Ned just up and volunteers that he was "present when she died," or something to that effect. Robert's response is that he swore to kill Rhaegar for what he did to Lyanna.

I have long wondered what Ned told Robert about how Lyanna died. But it seems clear that whatever Ned said about it, it led Robert to believe that Rhaegar caused her death.


Oh, I think Robert would have blamed Rhaegar even if Lyanna died of an infected paper cut after being abducted. Robert's rage was not rational and he wanted to obliterate everything having to do with Rhaegar, including Aegon and Rhaenys - whom he referred to as dragon spawn. i assume Ned told Robert that Lyanna died in captivity, and the means of death wouldn't matter. Rhaegar took her, Rhaegar had her, Rhaegar left her in a tower in Dorne, and because of Rhaegar, Lyanna died - and Robert felt cheated. That's all Robert had to know... On top of that, he tells himself that she was raped.

I think the real thing that eats at Robert is that he knew that Rhaegar loved Lyanna and he suspects that Lyanna loved Rhaegar. He says at one point (paraphrasing) "Now [Rhaegar]'s with [Lyanna], and I'm with her (Cersei)." R+L are together in the afterlife, and Robert only has his glossy memories of her to fuel his eternal rage at Rhaegar.

Meanwhile, Ned is left to navigate between his secret promise to his sister to protect her son who would be destroyed if Robert knew who Jon's real father was, his oath of fealty to his King, his marriage vows and his own over-burdened conscience. He did what he had to, and came to believe that a lie can be honorable sometimes, but he lives for 14 years with guilt and shame because of it.

#15 RumHam

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:50 PM

Oh, I think Robert would have blamed Rhaegar even if Lyanna died of an infected paper cut after being abducted. Robert's rage was not rational and he wanted to obliterate everything having to do with Rhaegar, including Aegon and Rhaenys - whom he referred to as dragon spawn. i assume Ned told Robert that Lyanna died in captivity, and the means of death wouldn't matter. Rhaegar took her, Rhaegar had her, Rhaegar left her in a tower in Dorne, and because of Rhaegar, Lyanna died - and Robert felt cheated. That's all Robert had to know... On top of that, he tells himself that she was raped.


You're totally right, but at the same time (and here we're getting into the psychology/personality of characters we don't know nearly enough about) if I were Robert and truly loved Lyanna* then I would want to know exactly how she died.

*Why did he love her? It's not even clear when he met her or why exactly he cared so much. Maybe he did spend considerable time with her and respected her as an (almost) "warrior woman." It's also possible that he wanted to marry Ned's sister more due to his love for Ned (not a Renly/Loras love, but a desire for Ned to be his brother/join their houses. ) Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited by RumHam, 15 December 2012 - 08:51 PM.


#16 niamh

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:52 PM

*Waves at Stubby*


I have long wondered what Ned told Robert about how Lyanna died. But it seems clear that whatever Ned said about it, it led Robert to believe that Rhaegar caused her death.

I don't quite agree, in my book Robert does know they had sex, and Robert being very good at denying what bothers him as we know from the start, decided that, since He, Robert, loved Lyanna, Rhaegar raped her, and all Targaryens must die.
Robert's love is one-sided and unhealthy, and Robert isn't the genial man we think he is at the start. There is a very nasty side to him, and an obsessively crazy side of him IMO, that is not good.
Notwithstanding the issue of a child or not, if Lyanna had lived and had refused him, he might have killed her himself. There is a reason Ned gives Cersei a chance to escape his best friend; he knows exactly how he will react to the news of his wife having fucked someone else. After all he waged a bloody war on account of his sister, and all the Stark men along with him. There's a lot we don't know yet, that might be less than honourable for the Starks.

in the light of J being R+L (if), it explains why he is kept aside and away from Robert, from anyone that would see a resemblance (Maester Aemon is conveniently blind and cannot tell either way) why he is not to go to KL, why Ned refuses to even discuss him, because he cannot tell a lie and of course he cannot tell even Catelyn. and there's no reason he wouldn't tell Catelyn except if the secret kills;
because if he is a Targaryen out of of Lyanna, he is a dead boy walking, so long as Robert lives. and Ned promised

#17 niamh

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:55 PM

Meanwhile, Ned is left to navigate between his secret promise to his sister to protect her son who would be destroyed if Robert knew who Jon's real father was, his oath of fealty to his King, his marriage vows and his own over-burdened conscience. He did what he had to, and came to believe that a lie can be honorable sometimes, but he lives for 14 years with guilt and shame because of it.

Particularly as he himself was against the whole Rhaegar thing and was behind marriage with Robert. It's hinted somewhere. It's a hard promise, very hard



eta: It was a lot harder on the Daynes, I suppose.

Edited by niamh O'Togbui, 15 December 2012 - 09:00 PM.


#18 Siralily

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:56 PM

While I see the many threads that discuss all of this (with plenty of replies), can someone breifly rule out and explain the other possibilities of Jon's mother being Ashara, Wylla, and any other popular potential candidates?

Sorry guys, I have no patience when it comes to reading 36 threads with 200+ replies each.

#19 niamh

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 09:14 PM

Ashara birthed a stillborn girl, we know that now. That was the biggest competitor and that's been shot by George in DwD
As for Wylla, why? Ned loved the incredibly beautiful Ashara Dayne and was loved in return we now know for sure (which he had met before he was betrothed to Catelyn, and likely he was the father of that dead baby even), but Ned is a dutiful, cold man, I doubt he'd love Wylla as well; not to the point of siring a bastard on her. No proof, it would just be totally out of character (and besides which there is no reason not to tell Catelyn about it then, particularly seeing how much it hurt their marriage to not mention the mother of Jon's)

Edited by niamh O'Togbui, 15 December 2012 - 09:16 PM.


#20 RumHam

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 09:25 PM

Ashara birthed a stillborn girl, we know that now. That was the biggest competitor and that's been shot by George in DwD
As for Wylla, why? Ned loved the incredibly beautiful Ashara Dayne and was loved in return we now know for sure (which he had met before he was betrothed to Catelyn, and likely he was the father of that dead baby even), but Ned is a dutiful, cold man, I doubt he'd love Wylla as well; not to the point of siring a bastard on her. No proof, it would just be totally out of character (and besides which there is no reason not to tell Catelyn about it then, particularly seeing how much it hurt their marriage to not mention the mother of Jon's)


Sorry, I haven't gotten to ADWD in my re-read so could you explain how we KNOW she gave birth to a stillborn? I think it was from Barristan's chapter where he wonders if he could have effectively prevented Robert's Rebellion by winning the Tournament at Harrenhall. But still he wasn't there.

In regards to Wylla, I think I read here recently that that theory (as explained to Davos) doesn't line up time-wise.