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References and Homages


1354 replies to this topic

#21 AverageGuy

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 06:44 PM

The big castle in Edinburgh, in Martin´s beloved Scotland, is called Castle Rock...does that ring a bell...?


There's also a Castle Rock in New Mexico...not a real castle, a landmark that looks like a castle in a mountain, I think. I remember driving by it when I lived there ten years ago. The Scotland reference may be more realistic, but Martin does live in Santa Fe.

#22 Lady Blackfish

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 08:48 PM

Surely though there is a difference between coincidence, inspiration, and actual homage, correct?

#23 Rhialto the Marvellous

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Posted 21 November 2005 - 12:07 PM

I've mentioned this one before.

Dany's marriage to Khal Drogo is very likely a reference to the Nibelunglied, where Kriemhild marries Attila the Hun in hopes of revenging the death of Siegfried.

The Painted Table may be a reference to Quin Shi Huang Di, China's "First and Foremost" Emperor, who began the Great Wall, and had them start counting the years from his reign. Among his many activities, while planning the uniting of the seven nations of China (that's right--seven nations) was the creation of a map which showed them as one country.

The Baratheon brothers happen to be very similar to the brothers York--Edward, Richard, and Clarence--during the War of the Roses.

#24 Heart of Fire

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 11:19 PM

Another possible reference is that Manderley is the name of the house in Rebecca. However I not sure if GRRM would be a fan of Daphne Du Maurier :)

#25 Artanaro

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 11:35 PM

Here is one I'm always shocked no one mentions. I guess many people don't have a love for the classics outside Scifi and Fantasy.

"[Arya] wished the poacher hadn't died. He'd known more about the woods than all the rest of them together, but he'd taken an arrow through the shoulder... Tarber had packed it with mud and moss from the lake, and for a day or two Kurz swore the wound was nothing, even though the flesh of his throat was turning dark while angry red welts crept up his jaw and down his chest. Then one morning he couldn't find the strength to get up, and by the next he was dead" (p221 ACOK).



This is a good description of Mistah Kurz from Joseph Conrad's "Heart of Darkness." Both even die from arrow wounds, if I remember correctly. When I get around to finding my copy, I'll post the quote from that book, which resembles the sentence about Martin's Kurz's death.

Artanaro


Also, I'd like to point out there should be a distinction between parallels and allusions. An allusion is a direct reference to another work, while a parallel just points to where the author's original concept is from.

George Martin has professed his respect for Richard III, which can be seen in Tyrion (Shakespeare's creation) and Stannis (the historical figure). But neither characters are identical to their counterparts. They only parallel each other in many respects.

Edited by Artanaro, 22 November 2005 - 11:35 PM.


#26 Ashara Stark

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 04:32 AM

Surely though there is a difference between coincidence, inspiration, and actual homage, correct?

You are right, Lady Blackfish, but I think that in most cases it is only GRRM who can say in which category a given character or event in the books falls ;)

#27 mcbigski

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 12:05 PM

Frey, who was a Norse fertility god, is a fitting family name for Lord Walder.

#28 BranTheBuilder

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 12:11 PM

In AGoT, during the Hands Torney, there is a reference to a shield painted with a Black Adder... having asked GRRM, he has confirmed that he is a huge fan of BA, particularly the first season... which starts with the death of Richard III...

#29 direwolf

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 11:14 PM

What about "Darkstar" from Feast? Also the name of a Grateful Dead song. If GRRM is a fan, it is certainly an homage. Or he may of just liked the name, or it could be a coincidence. Does anyone know if George likes the Dead?

#30 BranTheBuilder

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 08:31 AM

"Darkstar" could also be a reference to Babylon 5, if I remember correctly there was a Mimbari Battleship going by that name... the one that Sheridan destroyed in the Mimbari war.

#31 direwolf

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 09:57 PM

dont watch that show, but its probably more likely the reference

#32 King oop North

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 10:20 AM

I've posted this in the 'inspirations' thread, but I thought it might be better suited here. AFFC spoilers:

SPOILER: AFFC
I drew a parallel, even though it's probably just a coincidence, between Cat of the Canals and Molly Malone, the protagonist in a Scottish/Irish song called 'Cockles and Mussels'.
Comparing the line '...crying "Mussels and Cockles and Clams" as she wheeled her barrow through the Ragman's Harbour.' with the lyrics of the song, '...wheels her barrow/ Through streets/ Broad and narrow/ Crying,/ Cockles and mussels, alive, alive-oh'
http://www.contempla...nd/cockles.html
and there are a few similarities, even if probably just a coincidence.

Edited by King oop North, 26 November 2005 - 11:15 AM.


#33 BranTheBuilder

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 10:35 AM

KoN, I'd been thinking the same!

#34 Arvernian

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 08:52 PM

On the matter of House Vance, I right away thought of Hugo Gernsback (after who the Hugo award is named) when I saw the name Hugo Vance, even though I'd not picked up on the earlier Vance references.

Hyannisport MA, home of the Kennedys seems to be the influence in name, if nothing else, of Lannisport.

I also have to wonder if Gerald Dayne and his sword Dawn are in fact mirrored off of Michael Moorcock's Dorian Howkmoon nad his Sword of the Dawn.

#35 direwolf

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 09:59 PM

remember the TV show Twin Peaks? there were minor characters, the Martell family (I think it was just a husband and wife, don't remember). Could be a coincidence...

#36 Gorg

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 03:29 AM

SPOILER: AFfC
p. 176
"Grand Maester Pycelle told Cersei that she had not lost a son, but rather gained a daughter."

This is a reference to Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail, where the King of Swamps Castle says pretty much the same thing.


SPOILER: SoAsNotToGiveItAway

That's a rather common saying about weddings, at least here in the U.S.


#37 CelticBrennus

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 02:18 PM

How about GRRM and Ernst Junger. Junger's first book, Storm of Steel (the name of which is quite similar to Storm of Swords) featured some of the most graphic and close up looks at the fighting in WWI, and the style of his writing seems similar to the ways that some of the battles are depicted.

Also, Junger wrote another book, Fire and Blood which just happen to be the Targ words.

#38 G Vico

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 07:02 PM

Dagon:

The name of several Greyjoys, is an ancient Semitic fish god. The name also appears occassionally in the Lovecraft stories.

#39 hauberk

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 04:34 PM

Not sure if this is accurate or not, but House Grell comes up a number of times. In conjunction with the Green Arrow references in the heraldry, this may reference comic writer/artist Mike Grell - the man who reinvigorated Green Arrow with his Longbow Hunters story arc.

#40 Ran

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 04:56 PM

I think we need some connection between House Grell's arms and Mike Grell. Otherwise, I think it's a coincidence.