1046 replies to this topic

[Jash Kayk]

Dimadick, on 07 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

I don't know who Dan Carlin is. But the guy you remember dying in this way is probably Marcus Licinius Crassus (c. 115-53 BC). One of the most influential politicians in Rome, Crassus felt increasingly overshadowed by the military conquests and glory of his allies Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (106-48 BC) and Gaius Julius Caesar (100-44 BC). Seeking conquests of his own, Crassus led a Roman army in invading the Parthian Empire. The poorly planned expedition resulted in the Battle of Carrhae (53 BC), where 20,000 legionnaires were killed and about 10,000 others were captured.

Crassus was killed shortly following the lost battle. There are a couple of contradictory accounts of the manner of his death. But the most famous mentions that he was captured alive by the Parthians. The Parthians then supposedly poured molten gold into his mouth. Their reply to Crassus' thirst for wealth.

Ah yes I think it was him, it's been a while since I listened to the podcast but I remember a pretty lengthy discussion about the Parthians, thank you for letting me know. On a side note though, if you're interested in history you should check out the Hardcore History podcasts, Dan Carlin is an American radio DJ who has been studying history for years, it's a great podcast to pass the time, especially since a whole series can come to about 15 hours. They are available for free on iTunes, I would definitely recommend them.

[Devaki Khanna]

DayOfTheLannisters, on 27 October 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

Actually, it was the Hospitallers who wore black(with white crosses). The Templars wore white with red crosses. They remind me more of the militant groups of the Faith (can't quite remember what they're called atm) than the Watch.

Also, I'm convinced Jaime is at least partly based on Richard I. Spends a lot of time away from home, knighted at a young age, both extremely good with a sword.
Both captured on their way home from war.
Both have dubious relationships - Richard I is rumoured to have at least been bi - with the king of France, which is all fun and games.
And the most obvious link? Richard the Lionheart.

Although Jaime spends so much time away from home and is associated with knighthood and doubtful sexual relationships, I really cannot see him as modelled on Richard I. I see him as a Woodville--perhaps Edward, one of the younger siblings of Elizabeth (Woodville) Grey, who was a bit of a knight errant--he died in Brittany, to prevent its takeover by the French king. Needless to say, he was unsuccessful and died in the attempt. He was also the one in charge of the navy when Edward IV died--when Richard took over as Lord Protector, Edward Woodville commandeered a ship at anchor and fled the country.

[Summer is Ending]

HA. Finally got the joke. Frodo got Samwise for a sidekick to do the heavy lifting and Jon gets Samwell who won't lift anything that isn't made of mutton.

[Dimadick]

DayOfTheLannisters, on 27 October 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

Also, I'm convinced Jaime is at least partly based on Richard I. Spends a lot of time away from home, knighted at a young age, both extremely good with a sword.

I have trouble seeing Jaime as Richard I. He might have the necessary looks. Richard "was said to be very attractive; his hair was between red and blond, and he was light-eyed with a pale complexion. He was apparently of above average height: according to Clifford Brewer he was 6 feet 5 inches (1.96 m)". But the adversarial relationship with his father is missing. Richard spend years fighting against Henry II: First in the so-called Great Revolt (1173-1174), then from 1186 to 1189. He was even suspected of having contributed to the death of his father. That is without even taking into accounts the persistent rumors that Henry added the fiancée of Richard to his own mistresses.

In contrast, Jaime never fought against his father and seems not to have attempted to kill or depose Tywin. That doesn't really sound like Richard.

[James Arryn]

Dimadick, on 09 November 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

I have trouble seeing Jaime as Richard I. He might have the necessary looks. Richard "was said to be very attractive; his hair was between red and blond, and he was light-eyed with a pale complexion. He was apparently of above average height: according to Clifford Brewer he was 6 feet 5 inches (1.96 m)". But the adversarial relationship with his father is missing. Richard spend years fighting against Henry II: First in the so-called Great Revolt (1173-1174), then from 1186 to 1189. He was even suspected of having contributed to the death of his father. That is without even taking into accounts the persistent rumors that Henry added the fiancée of Richard to his own mistresses.

In contrast, Jaime never fought against his father and seems not to have attempted to kill or depose Tywin. That doesn't really sound like Richard.

Yeah, I don't see it either. Richard was also considered extremely diverse in his talents (music primary among them, but also architecture, poetry, etc.) and was always a political mover, like all Plantagenets of this era.

He's somewhat like Rhaegar; not really like Jaime that I see.

Also I would advise that calling a homosexual relationship 'dubious' or equating it with incest probably shouldn't be stated as self-evident. (Not you, the poster you quoted.)

[Jon Flowers]

Syrio's various instructions to Arya, that then become almost as mantras to her (still as a statue etc.) have always reminded me of Takeda Shingen's Wind Wood Fire Mountain motto.

A quick explanation of the motto: Swift as the Wind.  Silent as the Wood.  Fierce as Fire.  Immoveable as the Mountain.  The banner read only; Wind Wood Fire Mountain.

Edited by Jon Flowers, 12 November 2012 - 07:34 PM.

[Miriel]

The Kingdom of Sarnor that has popped up in the map of the known world in the new map book has got to be a homage to the Kingdom of Arnor correct?

[Jon Flowers]

DayOfTheLannisters, on 27 October 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

Actually, it was the Hospitallers who wore black(with white crosses). The Templars wore white with red crosses. They remind me more of the militant groups of the Faith (can't quite remember what they're called atm) than the Watch.

Also, I'm convinced Jaime is at least partly based on Richard I. Spends a lot of time away from home, knighted at a young age, both extremely good with a sword.
Both captured on their way home from war.
Both have dubious relationships - Richard I is rumoured to have at least been bi - with the king of France, which is all fun and games.
And the most obvious link? Richard the Lionheart.

Good catch with the Templar's insignia, I meant to refer to the Teutonic knights, whose wars against the Lithuanians and other Baltic tribes had some similarities to those between the Watch and the Wildings (largely in the importance of raiding and querilla warfare as well as the eventual lack of quarter given by both sides).  

With regard to Jaime Lannister and Richard I, I have to say that I don't see them being very similar apart from appearance (possibly) and martial skill to an extent (RIchard was a brilliant commander who could be suitably cautious when he needed to be).  They did share the lion as well though and that does make at least three similarities, but overal, I'm still not convinced.

Edited by Jon Flowers, 20 November 2012 - 01:16 AM.

[Ludd]

The four Stark boys resemble the Lancaster boys (Yes I know he twisted York and Lancaster around)
Henry V - a youthful warrior leading battles successfully at age 16 (Robb)
John - a wise, loyal and skillful support to brother and regent for his son (Jon)
Humphrey - the clever one who was linked to the church (Bran)
Thomas - the wild fierce one (Rickon)

[Ludd]

I certainly do not see Jaime as Richard I.  Renley would be closer. Richard I went off to the crusades.  Not Jaime at all.

Tyrion is very much modelled on Richard III.

[princefrog]

Hi, first time posting here.

The first time I read ACOK I noticed how Tyrion, in his last chapter, mentions over and over again his lack of a mouth.

This is from pages 841 and 842 of the paperback edition:

Quote

"He would have asked one of the silent sisters, but when he tried to speak he found he had no mouth. Smooth seamless skin covered his teeth. The discovery terrified him. How could he live without a mouth?"

Quote

"He would have cried out, if he'd had a mouth"

Quote

"I have no mouth"

So, as I read those two pages I remembered that GRRM loves science fiction and I immediately assumed this was an homage to Harlan Ellison's I have no mouth and I must scream. What do you guys think?

Edited by princefrog, 23 November 2012 - 10:58 AM.

[Lonmouth]

"An old man with a horse."

I'm re-reading SOS now and this was from when the wildlings wanted Jon Snow to kill the lone old man with a horse who'd made a fire.  Could this be a referrence to the old Chinese story of an old man and his horse?  Basically through the little story the people keep telling the old man he's cursed, he's lucky, he's cursed depending on these things that are happening to him, his horse or by his horse. The old man always replies to them that they are wrong and they can't possibly know the meaning behind things because they're only seeing a fragment of the truth.

"All we can see is a fragment. Who can say what will come next?”

"How do you know if this is a blessing or not? You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge? You read only one page of a book. Can you judge the whole book? You read only one word of one phrase. Can you understand the entire phrase?"


So maybe it's a comment on speculation.  Or maybe it's about temptation.  In the story the old man's horse is envied by all and everyone wants it, even the king.  There has never been such a strong and beautiful horse.  And though extremely poor the old man says it's not just a horse to him, it's a person and how could you sell a person?  The wildlings want Jon to kill him to prove himself to them, even Ygritte wants him to and eventually does it herself.  But Jon didn't buckle under the pressure, he wasn't tempted by peer pressure to do the easy thing.  It was wrong and he refused.  The weird thing is the old man never says a word.  He just stares at Jon the whole time, never begs or pleads and never even cries out or makes a noise when Ygritte slits his throat.  It's like he's just there to observe Jon's moral decision.  Immediately after Ygritte kills him a giant bolt of lightening hits the tower and Summer appears and rips out Styr's throat and savages the wildlings allowing Jon to escape on the old man's horse.

Maybe it's nothing related or maybe it's already been gone over on here before but GRRM is just blowing my mind and I'm bored at work.

[The BlackBear]

Euron Greyjoy's Silence, Robin Hobb's red ship raiders. Both have been painted red.

[Jon Flowers]

Does Euron and the Silence remind anyone else of Lavas Laerk and his silent crew in "The Sunken Land"?  They are both referred to as being mad.  Both have ships whose crews are silent.  And both are consumed by the lust for treasure and artifacts from a lost kingdom that is an obvious analogue to Atlantis.  I feel quite certain that Martin must have at least read Fritz Leiber and having done so, I think it likely that he may have included this and several other homages to his works in ASoIaF.

"Oh Lavas Laerk had a face like a dirk and of swordsmen, twenty and three
And his greased black ship through the waves did slip, twas the sleekest craft at sea
But it helped his naught when he was caught by magic, the Mouser and me
And now he feeds fishes the daintiest dishes...
But the daintiest dish is he."

[Riverland Lady]

I noted a few days ago, whilst reading a bit of Poe. In " The Cask of Amanilado" a question is asked of Montresor by Fortunado, while discussing Montresor's House and Arms.

Quote

"These vaults," he said, "are extensive."
"The Montresors," I replied, "were a great and numouous family."
"I forget your arms."
"A huge human foot d'or, in a field azure; the foot crushes a serpent rampant whos fangs are embedded in the heel."
Taken from: "The Cask of Amantilado"
By: Edgar Allan Poe

I read that last line (the bolded) and was instantly reminded of House Wyl of Dorne ( Here is the house, for reference:  http://www.westeros....ldry/Entry/819/  ). Amusingly they hold the Boneway, and Fortunato was entombed at the end of a narrow passageway in the crypts, with bones to cover the spot he was encased in the wall. Read into that as you will, but I thought it was a neat find.

[Jon Flowers]

Nice.  And that image in turn comes from God's curse of the Serpent in genesis.

[Maester Farwynd]

princefrog, on 23 November 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Hi, first time posting here.

The first time I read ACOK I noticed how Tyrion, in his last chapter, mentions over and over again his lack of a mouth.

This is from pages 841 and 842 of the paperback edition:







So, as I read those two pages I remembered that GRRM loves science fiction and I immediately assumed this was an homage to Harlan Ellison's I have no mouth and I must scream. What do you guys think?

After reading this comment I decided to reread I have no mouth, and I must scream. I noticed a random similarity, the narrator loses the tips of his fingers during the 'hurricane'.

[Pallantides]

Lightbringer with the Celtic sword Claidheamh Solais, meaning "Sword of Light". Appears in a number of oral Irish folk tales. It's most prominent featuring in the story "Adventure in the Otherworld". Also prominent in the song "Claidheamh Solais" by the band Doomsword. With lyrics such as:

Through the tales
The legend lived
A Sword of Salvation

At the side of
The greatest kings
Brought Hope and Destruction

A light that shone
Of ancient strength,
Arose from the Earth

From green misty hills
To swing in frostbitten lands
Forged by the Gods
The Sword that was made for Man

Caladvwlch, bring us all to Victory!
Blade of Doom, ruler of Man's Destiny!

I chant your countless names:
Sword of Light, Sword of Doom


Caladcholg
The rainbow beam
Connacht's Defender

Caliburn
Cymric Heir
Of the best of Eireann

A golden hilt
For a silver hand
Who ruled the first reign

Crusher of Evil
Its power will one day return
When the white lord is vanquished
The fire of our faith will burn

Caladvwlch, bring us all to victory!
Blade of Doom, ruler of Man's Destiny!

I chant your countless names:
Sword of Light, Sword of Doom

(Emphasis mine)

Obviously featured in these stories are fighting giants (usually of ice), or some other creature, as well as a bridal task (either related to getting a bride or some other sort of task relating to the wife of the character or the wife of someone else in the story).

I've mentioned this before, but it was in another thread that got buried, but I figured I might as well add it here. It certainly seems fitting enough.

[Castellan]

OK, I haven't read all 44 pages of comments so don't know if anyone has raised the influence of the Dorothy Dunnett historical fiction series about Francis Crawford. And is it just an influence or has GRRM put any actual references/homage in? The main resemblances are: Francis similar to Jaime; title of first book is A Game of Kings; sprawling geographic and cultural scale with FC travelling to many different courts; so many characters that needs a list and maps; the chess theme; the 'will Frances be able to save his illegitimate child?' bit (answer was no he sacrifices him!)....  Haven't read it for a long time. There are some similar names Arryn/Arran but that probably reflects GRRM drawing on history not on the DD books.

[bogdevil]

Roose Bolton, on 17 November 2005 - 04:20 AM, said:

An important figure in Stephen Donaldson's well-known fantasy series The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is named Kevin Landwaster. The name of Kevan Lannister could be a reference.

I see a lot of parallels with the Covenant series.

Theon's character arc has reminded me a lot of Thomas Covenant.  (he's even losing body parts)

Then there is also the Berek Halfhand == Quorin Halfhand + Jon Snow (after he burns his sword hand)

Kevan Landwaster + Berek + Thomas the white gold weilder== PtwP, Azor Ahai etc.   Lord Foul = great other.  Lord Foul's minions are called cave wights.