A closer look at Stannis Baratheon.

[E-Ro]

Stannis Baratheon is an interesting guy. He is the rightful king of the andals the roynar and the first men. He is also extremely badass. I am making this thread to adress alot of issues that people bring up alot about him. Things that I see alot that myself, and many others disagree with.

1.Stannis burns people, burning is wrong and he should not be king because of this.

Burning is wrong, of course, I agree with this. But before you get all high and mighty on him we should understand why he does the burnings. First let me say the amount of peple stannis has burned is rather low all things considered, I think its about 13?(dont quote me on that) Stannis has converted to rhollor, the red god. A minority religion in westeros, a good number of men in his command have also converted to this religion. A big part of it is burning people as sacrifice to rhollor in return for power and magic. Apparently there is power in kings blood. Stannis has only ever burned criminals and traiters. The scum of westeros. Its not as if he burns whenever he gets the chance or does so for the heck of it. He is on a mission, a mission to save the world and if he has to burn a few criminals to save westeros he will. Its one of the many reasons I like him so much. I also see alot of posts about edric, first stannis did not burn him. I also dont think he would have, really stannis would have been alot more upset at davos when he found out about it then he was.

2.Stannis cheated on his wife, he is a hypocrite.

This is funny because first of all, there is no law in westeros about cheating on your wife, and most lords have basterds and misstresses. Stannises marriage was arranged for him, it was not a match for love but a forced one. He has never found any joy in selyse, but he does find enjoyment with mel. I really dont see what the big deal is. Mel also brings him her magic and support, and stannis has never spoken out about being faithful to a spouse. So i disagree that this makes him a hypocrite.

3. Stannis is not a just man.

He reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights...I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.

This quote sums up perfectly why stannis is a just man. Unlike every other king in westeros he decides to go north and help out against the wildlings and greyjoys. He had other options, essos, dorne, the stormlands. Also, stannis keeps good discipline in his men, he gelds rapists and keeps a great amount of control over his men. A level of controll most leaders dont have. He is just, thats prett much a fact.

4. There is no evedince of stannis being a good general(my personal fav)

Stannis bristled at that. "I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"

Also

"Bolton has blundered," the king declared. "All he had to do was sit inside his castle whilst we starved. Instead he has sent some portion of his strength forth to give us battle. His knights will be horsed, ours must fight afoot. His men will be well nourished, ours go into battle with empty bellies. It makes no matter. Ser Stupid, Lord Too-Fat, the Bastard, let them come. We hold the ground, and that I mean to turn to our advantage."

Do I even need to say more on the subject? For further reading google alexander nevsky and a certain icy battle fought over a lake. Also the only battle he has ever lost was the bw but that was a plot gift for the lannisters and tyrells more then anything. They have about 90k men all together and manage to hit him in the rear with perfect timing. He manages to get an orderly retreat together and fight another day.

If you have anything else to add stannis fans please do, and if anyone has questions I would be more then happy to answer them. And please dont make silly comments that have nothing to do with anything, lets keep it serious and intelligent, thanks.

[rodrik Cassel]

You missed point 5. I dont like Stannis because I realy can´t stand that he is that awesome ;)

[Lion of Judah]

Oh gosh... :thumbsdown:

[E-Ro]

Oh gosh... :thumbsdown:

Like I said, questions are welcome.

[JonisnoGarySnow]

Stannis Baratheon is an interesting guy. He is the rightful king of the andals the roynar and the first men. He is also extremely badass. I am making this thread to adress alot of issues that people bring up alot about him. Things that I see alot that myself, and many others disagree with.

1.Stannis burns people, burning is wrong and he should not be king because of this.

Burning is wrong, of course, I agree with this. But before you get all high and mighty on him we should understand why he does the burnings. First let me say the amount of peple stannis has burned is rather low all things considered, I think its about 13?(dont quote me on that) Stannis has converted to rhollor, the red god. A minority religion in westeros, a good number of men in his command have also converted to this religion. A big part of it is burning people as sacrifice to rhollor in return for power and magic. Apparently there is power in kings blood. Stannis has only ever burned criminals and traiters. The scum of westeros. Its not as if he burns whenever he gets the chance or does so for the heck of it. He is on a mission, a mission to save the world and if he has to burn a few criminals to save westeros he will. Its one of the many reasons I like him so much. I also see alot of posts about edric, first stannis did not burn him. I also dont think he would have, really stannis would have been alot more upset at davos when he found out about it then he was.

I don't buy these justifications. First off, I don't think burning for religious reasons justifies it, no more than I think the High Septon's religion makes the WoS okay. Some stuff is just wrong, and burning people to death is.

The people he burned who were cannibals were not scum, they were hungry. There were other ways besides death to deal with this issue, especially not death by torture like burning is.

[TheMysteriousOne]

2.Stannis cheated on his wife, he is a hypocrite.

That isn't the only reason why people think Stannis is a hypocrite

[Lion of Judah]

Like I said, questions are welcome.

Do you think the North continues to support Stannis once a Stark lord arrives and King Robb's will is revealed?

[E-Ro]

I don't buy these justifications. First off, I don't think burning for religious reasons justifies it, no more than I think the High Septon's religion makes the WoS okay. Some stuff is just wrong, and burning people to death is.

I agree, but unlike the wos there is a reason for the burnings, its not just sensless and to hummiliate someone.

The people he burned who were cannibals were not scum, they were hungry. There were other ways besides death to deal with this issue, especially not death by torture like burning is.

Yea, but if he allows this were does it end? Canibalism is a blight, if men are allowed to eat fallen comrades whats to stop them from killing each other for food? Before long he would have no army at all.

[E-Ro]

That isn't the only reason why people think Stannis is a hypocrite

Why else?

Do you think the North continues to support Stannis once a Stark lord arrives and King Robb's will is revealed?

Dont know, either way it has nothing to do with his morality or his ability to lead men effectively.

[Lion of Judah]

Why else?

Dont know, either way it has nothing to do with his morality or his ability to lead men effectively.

He may have the ability to lead, but he won't be leading those Northmen for too long if he doesn't promise them independence.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Very nice rebuttals all and I agree that the kingdoms could do a lot worse than Mr Grumpy. However, there is one point which occurs to me that I can't easily understand or forgive:

6. Stannis' religious intolerance

Publicly burning the 7, stuff like that. I get it that the Iron Throne doesn't have a big tradition of impartiality in religious matters, but if I understand correctly, we're talking about how good a king Stannis would be in absolute terms, not about how much worse the alternatives are.

You've been pretty good at shedding light on the other questions regarding Stannis, maybe you could comment on this as well.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Why else?

1. He always talks about how Joffrey and his siblings are abominations, meanwhile he served an entire family that practiced incest

2. He calls Robb and everyone else against him for the throne traitors, meanwhile he himself was a traitor to his rightful king

There's more that I can't think of right now.

[ab aeterno]

1. He always talks about how Joffrey and his siblings are abominations, meanwhile he served an entire family that practiced incest

That doesn't make him a hypocrite as he was born into this situation. That's like saying that someone who was born into slavery but opposes slavery is a hypocrite. He was also following the law.

2. He calls Robb and everyone else against him for the throne traitors, meanwhile he himself was a traitor to his rightful king

Technically he wasn't seeking the crown, so he served a traitor, putting his brother ahead of his honor, but his brother was the traitor. Robb is seeking a crown.

He also appears to not be entirely at peace with this decision.

[Pyrrhus of Epirus]

I've said this before, and i'll say this again, burning people just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. All the kings and lords in Westeros execute traitors, Stannis just happens to burn them, if anything it's far more effective IMO considering he puts the fear of his Red God into his own men, and his enemies. If you're going to execute someone for betraying you, you should make as clear and precise a message as possible, and I think burnings convey that perfectly.

[ab aeterno]

He may have the ability to lead, but he won't be leading those Northmen for too long if he doesn't promise them independence.

Except that a number of them are already sworn to him.

[Lion of Judah]

Very nice rebuttals all and I agree that the kingdoms could do a lot worse than Mr Grumpy. However, there is one point which occurs to me that I can't easily understand or forgive:

6. Stannis' religious intolerance

Publicly burning the 7, stuff like that. I get it that the Iron Throne doesn't have a big tradition of impartiality in religious matters, but if I understand correctly, we're talking about how good a king Stannis would be in absolute terms, not about how much worse the alternatives are.

You've been pretty good at shedding light on the other questions regarding Stannis, maybe you could comment on this as well.

Very good point! I think Stannis's religious intolerance is going to be part of his undoing in the North, those Northmen would be open to his red witch either.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Technically he wasn't seeking the crown, so he served a traitor, putting his brother ahead of his honor, but his brother was the traitor. Robb is seeking a crown.

He's still a traitor. He fought against the king's forces and he served his brother, who was a traitor. Everyone who fought against Aerys was a traitor.

[JonisnoGarySnow]

I've said this before, and i'll say this again, burning people just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. All the kings and lords in Westeros execute traitors, Stannis just happens to burn them, if anything it's far more effective IMO considering he puts the fear of his Red God into his own men, and his enemies. If you're going to execute someone for betraying you, you should make as clear and precise a message as possible, and I think burnings convey that perfectly.

And I don't believe torture is necessary. Aerys burnt people who opposed him or pissed him off, look where it got him.

Look, public execution is about par for the course for nobles to keep their people in line, but burning people is crossing a line in my opinion. It's the one thing that I don't think I can forgive Stannis for, and I think he would do a lot better to dump this idea of human sacrifice and religious intolerance.

[Lion of Judah]

Except that a number of them are already sworn to him.

Once a Stark heir shows up those Northmen will not follow Stannis. They will not adopt the red religion, the will not abandon their forefathers and heritage for Stannis's claim. They didn't do it for the dragons, they won't do it for Stannis.

[ab aeterno]

He's still a traitor. He fought against the king's forces and he served his brother, who was a traitor. Everyone who fought against Aerys was a traitor.

Yes, but he doesn't rail against those following Robb, he rails against those actually calling themselves kings.

Even if he was a traitor once, by the law of Robert's Westeros, Stannis is king. If Robb were to win, Robb would have every right to call others traitors, but until that time, Robert's laws of succession are still in effect. We know this because Joffrey and Tommen claim the throne as Robert's heirs.