Think Cersei would do it all again?

[Kittykatknits]

I fully agree with your above post. I think it's simply a matter of middle-ground and not using incendiary language purposefully, as well as taking extra pains to be extremely rigorous in conveying precisely what one is trying to say on controversial issues.

I am actually highly sympathetic to the female-rights issue that came up, but I think that the manner in which this issue is often debated on here is more counterproductive to the cause, and incites more knee-jerk defensive responses than illuminating the issues at hand. In particular, I think that your treatment of these issues is a perfect example of how they should be discussed-- analytically, measured, clearly, even-handedly (your above post is an excellent example of this).

I think that there are a lot of aspects to feminism and understanding the female plight that may not be as widely understood or acknowledged, and I think that discussion of these aspects are a very good thing (and why the PtP threads continue to be among my favorites). There's also the fact that feminism has multiple interpretations and different schools of thought, and debate along these lines is really interesting to me as well.

Where I find myself becoming uncomfortable with the discussion is when there is a judgment placed on other posters for not seeing or sympathizing with these issues/ characters, which happens pretty much everywhere outside of the PtP and other reread threads. I become torn, because while I sometimes want to make a "feminist argument," I end up feeling like I should intervene about the more egregious assertions (especially, as was the case in this thread, where no one came close to making problematic statements about Cersei based on gender).

I think that some of the statements in this thread serve to harm the sympathetic position Cersei faces as a piece of chattel than it does to give her choices some kind of foundation in reason, largely because of the way the arguments were framed (not sympathizing = victim blamer). If this wasn't truly what was intended, then I think it's still problematic for a few reasons, but namely A. the lack of precision of intent ruffles everyone's feathers, because, let's face it, that's pretty offensive, and B. because everyone's now offended, any virtue of that position is lost in the ether. And this isn't just a problem in this particular thread, but a recurring issue when certain characters are discussed (just as the holy trinity of Cat-Sansa-Dany hate has an opposing set of problems).

There's definitely a middle ground (I see it in all the reread threads, which admittedly tend to me more intensive, limited projects), but I think the vast majority of character threads could benefit from modified tone and language from both sides when discussing these issues. It completely shuts off the discussion when it feels like you're being accused of categorically hating women, or feel shamed into not sympathizing with a character because it's being extended into applying one's attitude toward gender as a whole. I think these issues need to be brought up more, but done so in a way that no one feels personally attacked or insulted. That's really the issue I have; I think it gets carried away and feels like bullying sometimes (at least in terms of some of the posts here).

Thank you for that feedback. I can understand the need to stay away from incendiary messages and comments but I think this is an issue that is problematic on both sides. Before I go any further, I should say that my position when it comes to advocacy issues (and feminism is very much an advocacy issue) is pretty strongly influenced by what I've learned in the years I've been a part of the animal abolition movement. The key to successful advocacy is a mix of messages, those that might be considered shocking or inflammatory and those that are the more measured approach, as you are alluding to. The challenge is to know the audience and determine which type of message is the appropriate one to use at that point in time. And I know from personal experience that it's really damn hard to do. From what I have observed, that is what we are seeing on this board at times.

To go back to your earlier post and our use of Tyrion as an example of what we are talking about here. We've engaged in enough conversations and threads that I'm sure you know how I feel about many of his actions. I do judge his actions pretty harshly and strongly believe that his moral compass points to CR (as Lummel once pointed out to me). However, I've been called an ablist-hater and told that I'm prejudiced against dwarves when I state my opinions about his actions. I don't think it's a great stretch to imagine that I was rather taken aback and offended by these comments. My beliefs regarding Tyrion have to do with the fact that I consider him a rapist and murderer with a strong sense of entitlement that leads to morally dubious thoughts and actions. So, I am not trying to derail this thread, rather use my personal experience as a way to acknowledge that I can understand where others are coming from.

As to the character of Cersei, I am actually very conflicted. I don't consider her to be a good person in any way as my earlier post should have hinted at. However, I also can not say that I enjoy or like her as a character either. To me, the POV structure leads to being inside a character's head and I find hers to be an almost alien and inhospitable place. I don't enjoy reading about her scheming or find her humor all that funny. I can't enjoy her as a villain or become engaged in her quest for power. Yet, I repeatedly find myself in the position of defending her because she is a victim of rape and domestic violence. The WoS is one of the most revolting things I have ever had the displeasure of reading. Her treatment by her father is appalling to me, she is literally a baby-making tool he uses for his advantage. She made the decision to choose the father of her children, which I greatly admire. However, these acts seem to have further minimized any empathy she may have had. As has been said in the past, her response is to become the patriarch and become one of the most misogynistic characters in the entire series. And as a queen, this seems to be her great opportunity and her great tragedy. I'm a survivor of sexual assault and, as I'm sure will not be a surprise to you, my response as a survivor is very different than Cersei. Quite frankly, the fact that her experiences have led to such misogynistic behavior, is very troubling, upsetting and flat-out offensive to me. My choices have been very different than her choices. I suppose I can understand her behavior in an intellectual sense but that can not override much of the revulsion I feel for Cersei as a character at the same time. However, despite these personal feelings, I can not and will not stop defending her. Cersei is a victim and it is very apparent that her status as a victim has had a very heavy influence on who she is and many of the acts that that lead to such controvery on this board. Yes, she is a grown woman and should be fully accountable for her actions. At the same time, to ignore or minimize just how much her status as a victim has had on Cersei as a woman and on her actions, will lead to incorrect readings and understandings of her character. As I said in my earlier post, Cersei is who she is but she's also the sum of her experiences. That is true for Cersei as it is for each of us and every character in ASOIAF.

So, I hope you can forgive my meandering thoughts, I felt it important to level-set where I am coming from and how I see Cersei. Now, to talk about ASOIAF, this is a series that is filled with racism, sexism, homophobia, ablist-hate, classism, and many other prejudices, all put together in a lovely package of rape culture, slavery, and more. These are many of the same issues that are debated within our culture, around our dinner tables, and in our own heads. Is it any wonder that these same topics lead to some of the most heated discussions on this board? To make it worse, we are merely text on the monitor. There is no voice and no body language to help explain what we are saying. In the absence, our first instinct can be to assume the worst. I can admit that I've been guilty of this more than once and others have made the same assumption about me. My response when I've seen a rather upsetting or offensive post is to step away from the keyboard, spend time questioning whether I want to engage, and then forcing myself to respond or enter in to an argument in as rational a manner as I can. If you've seen enough of my posts, I'm sure it's apparent that I am successful at times and a complete failure at others. However, there are times when many, regardless of the issue, should consider doing the same.

A knee-jerk reaction of "double-standards" and "misandry" is never helpful to the debate. Of course and this goes without saying, the reverse, a cry of sexism when problematic behavior or statements are seen is not helpful to the discussion either. As I said earlier, my perspective on women's issues and advocacy is heavily framed by my experiences as an animal abolitiist. The key to changing minds is repeating messages and being ready when a person is in a place to listen. From personal experience, this readiness can sometimes take years to happen. It's a process and an incredibly frustrating one at times. But, I've seen a lot of people on this board who have openly expressed that arguments by others have caused them to re-think their positions and change their minds. Actually, I could mention a few who are heroes of mine for stating this publicly.

As you pointed out, the threads that seem most successful at discussing feminism and related topics in a manner that pushes real dialogue are re-reads and the p2p threads. I'm a fan of the p2p thread not just because I am a fan of Sansa but because it's a place to engage in the type of conversation I enjoy most. In each place, the rules are clear- if you make a statement, be prepared to back it up with the text. I'd love to engage in the same level of dialogue in other threads. And to be frank, although feminist issues are not the only issue relevant to female characters, they are very much something that should be part of the dialogue. Each female character is a product of her society, one that is patriarchial and misognistic with a heavily ingrained rape culture. It's relevant and we should talk about it. Now, I don't know how to fix the problem completely, I really don't. But, pretty certain I'm not off when I see giving others the benefit of the doubt and working to reply in a rational manner seems like a decent enough place to start. Whereever a person stands on a particular issue...

And my apologies for the length, it would seem I am incapable of writing anything but essays these days .

p.s. I think a discussion on how we, as fans, can remove agency from both male and female characters would be a fascinating topic to discuss, but I'm not starting that thread. ;)

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

And I have to add: why is it only defense of female characters that meets this kind of reception? I've seen countless fans white-wash Tyrion and Jaime, for example, and yet they're never accused of stripping them of their agency.

Personally, in terms of Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion I don't feel this is a male/female issue. It's an empathy issue. It is a lot easier for me as a reader to empathize with Jaime and Tyrion, because although they commit horrible acts they also do things for others that are completely unselfish. Cersei doesn't have these moments. The ONLY time I felt bad for Cersei was during the WoS. Unfortunately, I still think she will come back as the same ole Cersei seeking revenge for her torment; instead of accepting some level of responsibility and making the safety of her children paramount above all other things.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

Oh come. Her opting to take the WoS just so she could get back to her son definitely qualifies as a selfless action in my book, especially when you consider that she was being held quite comfortably at this point in time.

Sorry, I should have qualified my earlier statement by saying Cersei is completely narccisistic, unfathomably selfish, and totally incapable of empathy for anyone except her children (and only then because they are extensions of herself). Still despicable.

Cersei isn't really a good person. I'm actually glad she's not. There's a long list of truly evil men in the series, and for the most part, women are portrayed much more sympathetically/ are actually morally superior generally (I know that there is enormous hate for some female characters, but this hate isn't how they are portrayed in the books-- that's a reader reaction). That Mel and Cersei stand out as grey/ somewhat villainous is a good thing in my opinion.

Hell yeah! Cersei is one of my favourite characters for this very reason - she is a great villain and antagonist (in a series really bereft of female villains). Can't I just enjoy her character without looking for ways to 'mitigate' her revolting actions? Her path of self-destruction and wreaking havoc are what make her so enjoyable goddamit.