Winds of Winter blow cold Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I too vote against it, he shouldn't get away with everything because he can get away with some of it! & dismiss & not guilty are not the same thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian of the Lhazareen Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 the sad think about Jaime, and he makes it so clear in the show is that all his vows contradict, he was sworn to protect the small folk and obey his King, but then his king orders him to burn 1000's of small folk to death, due to this contradiction or oaths I don't find him guilty of killing Aerys, nor for charge 3, anywhere there is a contradiction of obligations there shouldbe a release from charges IMO, however guilty of everything else, and also for leading an army in attack of one of the severn kingdoms surely has to be high treason no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian of the Lhazareen Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 the sad think about Jaime, and he makes it so clear in the show is that all his vows contradict, he was sworn to protect the small folk and obey his King, but then his king orders him to burn 1000's of small folk to death, due to this contradiction or oaths I don't find him guilty of killing Aerys, nor for charge 3, anywhere there is a contradiction of obligations there shouldbe a release from charges IMO, however guilty of everything else, and also for leading an army in attack of one of the severn kingdoms surely has to be high treason no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I vote against the amendment.The good does not wash out the bad.I too vote against it, he shouldn't get away with everything because he can get away with some of it! & dismiss & not guilty are not the same thing! I like the following explanation.... I do not believe it is in the interests of justice for an innocent man to be convicted because those judges who believe him innocent do not agree on the reasons for his innocence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamSongs Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 1. IncestCondemned by the gods and society in general. However, people accepted incest by the Targs and were not judged by Westeroi law. Furthermore, it was consensual. Not Guilty.2. Treason, by sexual relations with the QueenGuilty3. Aiding and Abetting RapeNot guilty. He asked if they should not be protecting the Queen and was told it was not thier duty to protect the Queen from the King by his superiors. 4. RegicideNot guilty. His vow to defend the weak and protect the innocent was made before his Kingsguard oaths. Even without that, he had been pardoned by King Robert anyway.5. Assaulting the Hand of the KingNot guilty. Ned Stark had resigned his position. This was an arguement between families in a society where life is cheap and the High Houses mete out thier own judgement. 6. Sundry OathbreakingGuilty for breaking Kingsguard vows.7. Attempted MurderGuilty. Yes, Bran was falling. Jaime caught and pulled him to safety, only to deliberately push Bran.Punishiment:2. The Wall provided suitable penance is provided to the Faith.6. Stripped of titles and position in Kingsguard.7. The wall. The attempted murder was not premeditated, but a crime of passion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian of the Lhazareen Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 1. IncestCondemned by the gods and society in general. However, people accepted incest by the Targs and were not judged by Westeroi law. Furthermore, it was consensual. Not Guilty.2. Treason, by sexual relations with the QueenGuilty3. Aiding and Abetting RapeNot guilty. He asked if they should not be protecting the Queen and was told it was not thier duty to protect the Queen from the King by his superiors.4. RegicideNot guilty. His vow to defend the weak and protect the innocent was made before his Kingsguard oaths. Even without that, he had been pardoned by King Robert anyway.5. Assaulting the Hand of the KingNot guilty. Ned Stark had resigned his position. This was an arguement between families in a society where life is cheap and the High Houses mete out thier own judgement.6. Sundry OathbreakingGuilty for breaking Kingsguard vows.7. Attempted MurderGuilty. Yes, Bran was falling. Jaime caught and pulled him to safety, only to deliberately push Bran.Punishiment:2. The Wall provided suitable penance is provided to the Faith.6. Stripped of titles and position in Kingsguard.7. The wall. The attempted murder was not premeditated, but a crime of passion.very good defence. although I disagree with your verdict on point 5, how do you find him for attacking the riverlands with an army at his back?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winds of Winter blow cold Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Jury nullification! People are find him innocent just because they like him! Move for a mistrial, & resubmission of charges! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Judah Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Jury nullification! People are find him innocent just because they like him! Move for a mistrial, & resubmission of charges!Oh boy. If you can provide 5 instances where the jury has been finding the defendant innocent because they like him, then I will support you move for a mistrial. A mistrial will need a majority vote though, so do you still wish to proceed? If you do state your case, provide your evidence and let's vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Minos Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Subject: Motion to amend the Code of Procedure governing this CourtAs asked by Judge Lion of Judah, and based on the principle first formulated by Judge ab aeterno and myself, I propose that the Code of Procedure for this Court be amended.I move that after the original provision stating "At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Majority rules.", the following be added:If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.I call on all presiding Judges and legal experts to vote on the proposed amendment, votes being 'for' and 'against'.Addendum: Those who would like to understand the reasons behind the proposed changes, as well as arguments for and against, I point to several posts on this page and the previous. I vote in favor of this amendment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Minos Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Also I would like to emphasize on something that I posted in my previous post but I don't see that anyone has take acount of.The incident of assaulting the hand of the king had happended twice from Jaime Lannister.His first victim was Lord Rossart who was acting as the hand of the king Aerys II on the ending of the Rebellion.Even though the accusation of assaulting the hand of the king Eddard Stark is false as Lord Stark wasn't acting as the Hand that moment he should taken accountable for his act against Lord Rossart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Judah Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Ser Jamie Lannister, Lord Commander of the Kings Guard, Warden of the East, alias 'The Kingslayer' on this day Monday December 31st Judges of this court find you:Guilty on count 1-Incest with your sister the Queen Cersei Lannister.Guilty on count 2-Treason against the realm.Not Guilty on count 3-Aiding and Abetting rape.Not Guilty on count 4-Regicide against the lawful king.Guilty on count 5-Assaulting the hand of the king.Guilty on count 6-Sundry Oathbreaking.Guilty on count 7-Attempted murder.Ser Jamie this court hereby sentence you stripped of all honorary titles, issue you a monetary penalty of 200,000 gold dragons, and sentence you put to death by sword. May the gods old and new have mercy on your soul.Vote TallyCount 1- 28 guilty, 8 not guilty, 12 dismissalCount 2- 37 guilty, 4 not guilty, 3 dismissalCount 3- 7 guilty, 33 not guilty, 8 dismissalCount 4- 16 guilty, 22 not guilty, 6 dismissalCount 5- 22 guilty, 17 not guilty, 6 dismissalCount 6- 29 guilty, 9 not guilty, 8 dismissalCount 7- 44 guilty, 2 not guilty, 0 dismissalThe court is now adjourned, next case on the docket will be presented within the next day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Judah Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 The proposed amendment below by judge Mr. Fixit passed 9 Yays to 3 Nays. The following amendment will take effect at the next trial.Subject: Motion to amend the Code of Procedure governing this CourtAs asked by Judge Lion of Judah, and based on the principle first formulated by Judge ab aeterno and myself, I propose that the Code of Procedure for this Court be amended.I move that after the original provision stating "At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Majority rules.", the following be added:If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.I call on all presiding Judges and legal experts to vote on the proposed amendment, votes being 'for' and 'against'.Addendum: Those who would like to understand the reasons behind the proposed changes, as well as arguments for and against, I point to several posts on this page and the previous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clariana Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I too would vote against the proposed amendment and re-iterate that dismissal is not the same as acquittal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Groat Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I too would vote against the proposed amendment and re-iterate that dismissal is not the same as acquittal.Maybe people need to specify dismissal with prejudice. That is the same as acuittal in practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winds of Winter blow cold Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 A dismissal can be refiled, not guilty can not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.I call on all presiding Judges and legal experts to vote on the proposed amendment, votes being 'for' and 'against'.To clarify: This applies to each individual count / charge ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 To clarify: This applies to each individual count / charge ?Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I think I can vote for it then, so long as we're not talking about blurring the multiple charges into an single guilty/not-guilty verdict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Groat Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Maybe people need to specify dismissal with prejudice. That is the same as acuittal in practice.A dismissal can be refiled, not guilty can not.I made the key words easier for you to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Ser Jamie Lannister, Lord Commander of the Kings Guard, Warden of the East, alias 'The Kingslayer' on this day Monday December 31st Judges of this court find you:Guilty on count 1-Incest with your sister the Queen Cersei Lannister.Guilty on count 2-Treason against the realm.Not Guilty on count 3-Aiding and Abetting rape.Not Guilty on count 4-Regicide against the lawful king.Guilty on count 5-Assaulting the hand of the king.Guilty on count 6-Sundry Oathbreaking.Guilty on count 7-Attempted murder.Ser Jamie this court hereby sentence you stripped of all honorary titles, issue you a monetary penalty of 200,000 gold dragons, and sentence you put to death by sword. May the gods old and new have mercy on your soul.Vote TallyCount 1- 28 guilty, 8 not guilty, 12 dismissalCount 2- 37 guilty, 4 not guilty, 3 dismissalCount 3- 7 guilty, 33 not guilty, 8 dismissalCount 4- 16 guilty, 22 not guilty, 6 dismissalCount 5- 22 guilty, 17 not guilty, 6 dismissalCount 6- 29 guilty, 9 not guilty, 8 dismissalCount 7- 44 guilty, 2 not guilty, 0 dismissalThe court is now adjourned, next case on the docket will be presented within the next day.<Starts sneaking through the walls of the black cells in disguise> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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