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Court of Law, v3: Jaime Lannister


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129 replies to this topic

#101 Winds of Winter blow cold

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:18 AM

I too vote against it, he shouldn't get away with everything because he can get away with some of it! & dismiss & not guilty are not the same thing!

#102 Guardian of the Lhazareen

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:57 AM

the sad think about Jaime, and he makes it so clear in the show is that all his vows contradict, he was sworn to protect the small folk and obey his King, but then his king orders him to burn 1000's of small folk to death, due to this contradiction or oaths I don't find him guilty of killing Aerys, nor for charge 3, anywhere there is a contradiction of obligations there shouldbe a release from charges IMO, however guilty of everything else, and also for leading an army in attack of one of the severn kingdoms surely has to be high treason no?

#103 Guardian of the Lhazareen

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:57 AM

the sad think about Jaime, and he makes it so clear in the show is that all his vows contradict, he was sworn to protect the small folk and obey his King, but then his king orders him to burn 1000's of small folk to death, due to this contradiction or oaths I don't find him guilty of killing Aerys, nor for charge 3, anywhere there is a contradiction of obligations there shouldbe a release from charges IMO, however guilty of everything else, and also for leading an army in attack of one of the severn kingdoms surely has to be high treason no?

#104 The Fallen

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:02 AM

I vote against the amendment.
The good does not wash out the bad.



I too vote against it, he shouldn't get away with everything because he can get away with some of it! & dismiss & not guilty are not the same thing!


I like the following explanation.

... I do not believe it is in the interests of justice for an innocent man to be convicted because those judges who believe him innocent do not agree on the reasons for his innocence.



#105 DreamSongs

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:23 AM

1. Incest
Condemned by the gods and society in general. However, people accepted incest by the Targs and were not judged by Westeroi law. Furthermore, it was consensual. Not Guilty.

2. Treason, by sexual relations with the Queen
Guilty

3. Aiding and Abetting Rape
Not guilty. He asked if they should not be protecting the Queen and was told it was not thier duty to protect the Queen from the King by his superiors.

4. Regicide

Not guilty. His vow to defend the weak and protect the innocent was made before his Kingsguard oaths. Even without that, he had been pardoned by King Robert anyway.

5. Assaulting the Hand of the King
Not guilty. Ned Stark had resigned his position. This was an arguement between families in a society where life is cheap and the High Houses mete out thier own judgement.



6. Sundry Oathbreaking
Guilty for breaking Kingsguard vows.

7. Attempted Murder
Guilty. Yes, Bran was falling. Jaime caught and pulled him to safety, only to deliberately push Bran.

Punishiment:
2. The Wall provided suitable penance is provided to the Faith.
6. Stripped of titles and position in Kingsguard.
7. The wall. The attempted murder was not premeditated, but a crime of passion.

#106 Guardian of the Lhazareen

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:38 AM

1. Incest
Condemned by the gods and society in general. However, people accepted incest by the Targs and were not judged by Westeroi law. Furthermore, it was consensual. Not Guilty.

2. Treason, by sexual relations with the Queen
Guilty

3. Aiding and Abetting Rape
Not guilty. He asked if they should not be protecting the Queen and was told it was not thier duty to protect the Queen from the King by his superiors.

4. Regicide

Not guilty. His vow to defend the weak and protect the innocent was made before his Kingsguard oaths. Even without that, he had been pardoned by King Robert anyway.

5. Assaulting the Hand of the King
Not guilty. Ned Stark had resigned his position. This was an arguement between families in a society where life is cheap and the High Houses mete out thier own judgement.



6. Sundry Oathbreaking
Guilty for breaking Kingsguard vows.

7. Attempted Murder
Guilty. Yes, Bran was falling. Jaime caught and pulled him to safety, only to deliberately push Bran.

Punishiment:
2. The Wall provided suitable penance is provided to the Faith.
6. Stripped of titles and position in Kingsguard.
7. The wall. The attempted murder was not premeditated, but a crime of passion.


very good defence. although I disagree with your verdict on point 5, how do you find him for attacking the riverlands with an army at his back??

#107 Winds of Winter blow cold

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:41 AM

Jury nullification! People are find him innocent just because they like him! Move for a mistrial, & resubmission of charges!

#108 Lion of Judah

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:49 AM

Jury nullification! People are find him innocent just because they like him! Move for a mistrial, & resubmission of charges!

Oh boy. If you can provide 5 instances where the jury has been finding the defendant innocent because they like him, then I will support you move for a mistrial. A mistrial will need a majority vote though, so do you still wish to proceed? If you do state your case, provide your evidence and let's vote.

Edited by Lion Of Judah, 29 December 2012 - 02:49 AM.


#109 King Minos

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:40 AM

Subject: Motion to amend the Code of Procedure governing this Court


As asked by Judge Lion of Judah, and based on the principle first formulated by Judge ab aeterno and myself, I propose that the Code of Procedure for this Court be amended.

I move that after the original provision stating "At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Majority rules.", the following be added:

If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.

I call on all presiding Judges and legal experts to vote on the proposed amendment, votes being 'for' and 'against'.

Addendum: Those who would like to understand the reasons behind the proposed changes, as well as arguments for and against, I point to several posts on this page and the previous.


I vote in favor of this amendment.

#110 King Minos

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:53 AM

Also I would like to emphasize on something that I posted in my previous post but I don't see that anyone has take acount of.The incident of assaulting the hand of the king had happended twice from Jaime Lannister.His first victim was Lord Rossart who was acting as the hand of the king Aerys II on the ending of the Rebellion.Even though the accusation of assaulting the hand of the king Eddard Stark is false as Lord Stark wasn't acting as the Hand that moment he should taken accountable for his act against Lord Rossart.

#111 Lion of Judah

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:53 AM

Ser Jamie Lannister, Lord Commander of the Kings Guard, Warden of the East, alias 'The Kingslayer' on this day Monday December 31st Judges of this court find you:

Guilty on count 1-Incest with your sister the Queen Cersei Lannister.

Guilty on count 2-Treason against the realm.

Not Guilty on count 3-Aiding and Abetting rape.

Not Guilty on count 4-Regicide against the lawful king.

Guilty on count 5-Assaulting the hand of the king.

Guilty on count 6-Sundry Oathbreaking.

Guilty on count 7-Attempted murder.

Ser Jamie this court hereby sentence you stripped of all honorary titles, issue you a monetary penalty of 200,000 gold dragons, and sentence you put to death by sword. May the gods old and new have mercy on your soul.

Vote Tally

Count 1- 28 guilty, 8 not guilty, 12 dismissal
Count 2- 37 guilty, 4 not guilty, 3 dismissal
Count 3- 7 guilty, 33 not guilty, 8 dismissal
Count 4- 16 guilty, 22 not guilty, 6 dismissal
Count 5- 22 guilty, 17 not guilty, 6 dismissal
Count 6- 29 guilty, 9 not guilty, 8 dismissal
Count 7- 44 guilty, 2 not guilty, 0 dismissal

The court is now adjourned, next case on the docket will be presented within the next day.

Edited by Lion Of Judah, 31 December 2012 - 08:03 AM.


#112 Lion of Judah

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:01 AM

The proposed amendment below by judge Mr. Fixit passed 9 Yays to 3 Nays. The following amendment will take effect at the next trial.
Subject: Motion to amend the Code of Procedure governing this Court


As asked by Judge Lion of Judah, and based on the principle first formulated by Judge ab aeterno and myself, I propose that the Code of Procedure for this Court be amended.

I move that after the original provision stating "At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Majority rules.", the following be added:

If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.

I call on all presiding Judges and legal experts to vote on the proposed amendment, votes being 'for' and 'against'.

Addendum: Those who would like to understand the reasons behind the proposed changes, as well as arguments for and against, I point to several posts on this page and the previous.

#113 Clariana

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:30 AM

I too would vote against the proposed amendment and re-iterate that dismissal is not the same as acquittal.

#114 Ghost of Groat

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 09:48 AM

I too would vote against the proposed amendment and re-iterate that dismissal is not the same as acquittal.


Maybe people need to specify dismissal with prejudice. That is the same as acuittal in practice.

#115 Winds of Winter blow cold

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:59 PM

A dismissal can be refiled, not guilty can not.

#116 Pod The Impaler

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 09:11 PM

If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.

I call on all presiding Judges and legal experts to vote on the proposed amendment, votes being 'for' and 'against'.



To clarify: This applies to each individual count / charge ?

#117 Mr Fixit

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:26 PM

To clarify: This applies to each individual count / charge ?


Yes.

#118 Pod The Impaler

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 11:27 PM

I think I can vote for it then, so long as we're not talking about blurring the multiple charges into an single guilty/not-guilty verdict.

#119 Ghost of Groat

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:30 AM

Maybe people need to specify dismissal with prejudice. That is the same as acuittal in practice.

A dismissal can be refiled, not guilty can not.


I made the key words easier for you to see.

#120 Where Boars Glow

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:08 AM

Ser Jamie Lannister, Lord Commander of the Kings Guard, Warden of the East, alias 'The Kingslayer' on this day Monday December 31st Judges of this court find you:

Guilty on count 1-Incest with your sister the Queen Cersei Lannister.

Guilty on count 2-Treason against the realm.

Not Guilty on count 3-Aiding and Abetting rape.

Not Guilty on count 4-Regicide against the lawful king.

Guilty on count 5-Assaulting the hand of the king.

Guilty on count 6-Sundry Oathbreaking.

Guilty on count 7-Attempted murder.

Ser Jamie this court hereby sentence you stripped of all honorary titles, issue you a monetary penalty of 200,000 gold dragons, and sentence you put to death by sword. May the gods old and new have mercy on your soul.

Vote Tally

Count 1- 28 guilty, 8 not guilty, 12 dismissal
Count 2- 37 guilty, 4 not guilty, 3 dismissal
Count 3- 7 guilty, 33 not guilty, 8 dismissal
Count 4- 16 guilty, 22 not guilty, 6 dismissal
Count 5- 22 guilty, 17 not guilty, 6 dismissal
Count 6- 29 guilty, 9 not guilty, 8 dismissal
Count 7- 44 guilty, 2 not guilty, 0 dismissal

The court is now adjourned, next case on the docket will be presented within the next day.


<Starts sneaking through the walls of the black cells in disguise>