What did Ned know before the fight at the TOJ?

[dragonrider11]

What I've never understood about the whole R+L = J scenario, is why the KG at the TOJ don't seem to tell Ned and his men the truth when they arrive.

Let’s say if R+L = J was true, and the remaining KG stayed at TOJ not only to obey R's commands but also because they were protecting J the last surviving Targ heir, then surely when his uncle Ned turned up on their doorstep they could have erm...brought him to speed on the truth. Preferably before swords were drawn.

Maybe R did swear them to secrecy to protect him, but seriously if J were ever to be crowned King, than at some point the truth about his being a Targ had to be revealed.

It’s really confusing to me why the KG didn't tell Ned the truth when he arrived. Because if R+L = J is true then the fact that the first group of men to find them were led by the honourable Lord Eddard Stark J's maternal uncle should have seemed like a Godsend to the KG.

I'm sure in GOT it's revealed during Ned's feverish memories that he actually told the KG that Jamie and Barristian were spared and showed mercy by Robert, which implies that he wasn't on strict orders to kill them.

Instead they babble on about what being a KG is all about before they draw swords to kill him! Did they actually believe that upon knowing the truth Ned would try and harm/kill the sister he had come to 'rescue' and his own nephew? It's kind of harsh that the KG would think Ned would really stoop to kinslaying...and for what obeying Robert's orders? Which is a moot point since I highly doubt Robert ever had any idea of there being a whole R+L = J, so he could never have ordered the death of J before Ned reached the TOJ.

This hints to me that the KG thought Ned was so faithful, loyal and honour bound to Robert and his Targ hating ways, that they believe he too would kill any Targ on sight.

Still it's weird that they didn't even try and get him to hear the truth from Lyanna to gauge his reaction.

[Toth]

The KG pretty much expected that he wasn't there to harm Lyanna, but they weren't so sure about Jon. Up to this event, Ned stayed absolutely loyal to Robert and Hightower was not able to tell, if he would hand the baby to him or not.

To answer your topic: I'm pretty sure by now that he knew about R + L. I mean, you need to be an utter fool (or blind of love, like Robert) to ignore the events at Harrenhal. I would even go so far, that he knew about Lyanna being pregnant, explaining why he became so angry about Roberts reaction to Elia and her children. He didn't saw Martell dead on the floor, he saw Lyanna and her child there, fearing what Robert would be able to do to her, if he ever found out.

Edit: A question to anyone with more knowledge about this stuff: Is it ever stated, if Ned was with Lyanna, when she was "kidnapped"? We know, that Brandon was somewhere on the Kingsroad, but did Ned actually met Rhaegar and let him go? In the end, the whole situation turned awefully when Brandon rode back to KL, unaware of the whole situation and Aerys started to burn people alive in his paranoia.

I could imagine that, until this point, Ned had hoped that Rhaegar would secretly raise the child and send Lyanna back later or something (he needed only the child for his prophesy-hogwash, not the mother). Then everything became a mess and he fought for his father, his brother and his best friend. His knowledge of the whole "kidnapping" would also explain, that he never shared Roberts villainised picture of Rhaegar, especially if it was all a ploy to save Lyanna from Roberts wroth.

So much crackpot for today...

[The Mountain That Flies]

What I've never understood about the whole R+L = J scenario, is why the KG at the TOJ don't seem to tell Ned and his men the truth when they arrive.

Let’s say if R+L = J was true, and the remaining KG stayed at TOJ not only to obey R's commands but also because they were protecting J the last surviving Targ heir, then surely when his uncle Ned turned up on their doorstep they could have erm...brought him to speed on the truth. Preferably before swords were drawn.

This has bothered me as well, but the simplest explanation is that the fever dream of Ned's, which is the only textual evidence we have of what happened at the ToJ, is incomplete. It is only a vague recollection after all, and occurs while Ned is slightly off his rocker, so there's a lot that happened that day missing. It's possible they did have an extensive conversation about the truth, in which they said they were ordered to keep baby Jon there until he could be spirited away to the Free Cities. Rhaegar, and the Kingsguard, must have known what would have happened if Robert had found out, and felt even Ned could not protect the boy.

Edit: A question to anyone with more knowledge about this stuff: Is it ever stated, if Ned was with Lyanna, when she was "kidnapped"? We know, that Brandon was somewhere on the Kingsroad, but did Ned actually met Rhaegar and let him go? In the end, the whole situation turned awefully when Brandon rode back to KL, unaware of the whole situation and Aerys started to burn people alive in his paranoia.

I could imagine that, until this point, Ned had hoped that Rhaegar would secretly raise the child and send Lyanna back later or something (he needed only the child for his prophesy-hogwash, not the mother). Then everything became a mess and he fought for his father, his brother and his best friend. His knowledge of the whole "kidnapping" would also explain, that he never shared Roberts villainised picture of Rhaegar, especially if it was all a ploy to save Lyanna from Roberts wroth.

The entire timeline between Harrenhall and Brandon showing up in King's Landing is very vague, and while some things can logically be deduced (Ned and Robert went back to the Vale after the tourney, Benjen went back to Winterfell, etc.) there's no certain proof of where Lyanna was when she vanished with Rhaegar, how word got back to Brandon, or even how much exact time had elapsed. It's been theorized that Benjen knew the real story behind Lyanna and Rhaegar, and his guilt over this is what drove him to join the Night's Watch, but Ned's knowledge is a lot harder to place.

[Toth]

The entire timeline between Harrenhall and Brandon showing up in King's Landing is very vague, and while some things can logically be deduced (Ned and Robert went back to the Vale after the tourney, Benjen went back to Winterfell, etc.) there's no certain proof of where Lyanna was when she vanished with Rhaegar, how word got back to Brandon, or even how much exact time had elapsed. It's been theorized that Benjen knew the real story behind Lyanna and Rhaegar, and his guilt over this is what drove him to join the Night's Watch, but Ned's knowledge is a lot harder to place.

Ok, point for you. It would be pretty contrived for Lyanna to join Ned and her betrothed to Eyrie (even if we assume, that the upcoming wedding was planned to be there) and not returning with her little brother and her father to Winterfell. I'm going to step back from my crackpot theory, now believing that Ned was merely assuming what happened to Lyanna.

[RedBean]

I think Ned knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna being in love before he went to the ToJ, either because he figured it out, but more likely because Benjen told him (Benjen and Lyanna were close, and it's very possible that he knew about the elopement).

[Blackfish Tully]

What I've never understood about the whole R+L = J scenario, is why the KG at the TOJ don't seem to tell Ned and his men the truth when they arrive.

Let’s say if R+L = J was true, and the remaining KG stayed at TOJ not only to obey R's commands but also because they were protecting J the last surviving Targ heir, then surely when his uncle Ned turned up on their doorstep they could have erm...brought him to speed on the truth. Preferably before swords were drawn.

Maybe R did swear them to secrecy to protect him, but seriously if J were ever to be crowned King, than at some point the truth about his being a Targ had to be revealed.

It’s really confusing to me why the KG didn't tell Ned the truth when he arrived. Because if R+L = J is true then the fact that the first group of men to find them were led by the honourable Lord Eddard Stark J's maternal uncle should have seemed like a Godsend to the KG.

I'm sure in GOT it's revealed during Ned's feverish memories that he actually told the KG that Jamie and Barristian were spared and showed mercy by Robert, which implies that he wasn't on strict orders to kill them.

Instead they babble on about what being a KG is all about before they draw swords to kill him! Did they actually believe that upon knowing the truth Ned would try and harm/kill the sister he had come to 'rescue' and his own nephew? It's kind of harsh that the KG would think Ned would really stoop to kinslaying...and for what obeying Robert's orders? Which is a moot point since I highly doubt Robert ever had any idea of there being a whole R+L = J, so he could never have ordered the death of J before Ned reached the TOJ.

This hints to me that the KG thought Ned was so faithful, loyal and honour bound to Robert and his Targ hating ways, that they believe he too would kill any Targ on sight.

Still it's weird that they didn't even try and get him to hear the truth from Lyanna to gauge his reaction.

Ned Stark was the second son of the Lord of the North , the Kingsguard would have had very little information on what kind of person he was . They may never have even talked to him before meeting him at the Tower of Joy. As far as the Kingsguard knew Ned would kill the child or at the very least take him to Robert , they could not risk that and their oath would not allow them to turn over their King , even to his Uncle .

[Fire Eater]

Ned Stark was the second son of the Lord of the North , the Kingsguard would have had very little information on what kind of person he was . They may never have even talked to him before meeting him at the Tower of Joy. As far as the Kingsguard knew Ned would kill the child or at the very least take him to Robert , they could not risk that and their oath would not allow them to turn over their King , even to his Uncle .

Agreed, they knew he was fostered with Robert and thus was one of his most loyal and trusted supporters. Even if he would never kill his sister's son, they thought he might present the child to Robert.

[sarah.jenice]

Ned Stark was the second son of the Lord of the North , the Kingsguard would have had very little information on what kind of person he was . They may never have even talked to him before meeting him at the Tower of Joy. As far as the Kingsguard knew Ned would kill the child or at the very least take him to Robert , they could not risk that and their oath would not allow them to turn over their King , even to his Uncle .

Agreed.

Also, I don't think Ned's recollection in AGoT is incomplete. It reads exactly like Cersei's Maggy the Frog recollection - Ned "they were six in the dream as they were in life"; Cersei "they were three in the dream as they were in life." I think we are given the exact way it went down. If there was a long talk and explanation then why did they end up fighting?

I think they should have tried harder to talk to Ned since he was Lyanna's brother and all of the men with him were fellow Northmen, but the three Kingsguard probably didn't think they would lose the fight. If they killed Ned and all of his companions, their king was safe and they never put his safety at risk. Kingsguard don't gamble with the welfare of their king and that's pretty much what they tell him. Kingsguard don't flee. They stand and fight for their king.

[Theon The Hungry Wolf]

Ned was unsure about what had happened. I don't think that as soon as he heard the news that Lyanna had disappeared with Rhaegar he assumed anything. I think Ned may have noticed things during the tourney about their relationship and when he heard the news, he was not pleased but he did not develop a burning hatred for Rhaegar for what he had apparently done. If Ned truly thought Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna, them feelings of dislike would stay with him throughout his life as opposed to the view he has of him.

When Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy, he was not sure what he would find and so, he brought his greatest friends/companions from the north for emotional support. For all he knew, when he arrived, Lyanna would be standing in front of the tower smiling and well, or she could have been dead due to Rhaegar.

The Kingsguard knew that the Targaryen dynasty was done, and them with it. I think the men had a good knowledge of Ned's personality, due to Lyanna speaking of her elder brother who was cutting down Targaryen loyalists in the Riverlands to win her back. And through Ashara Dayne, Ned and her supposedly had a fling and a love for each other, I am sure she would tell Arthur of this and how Ned is.

The Kingsguard could have laid down their swords, handed over Jon and fled to the Free Cities. Yet these were men of honour and glory, they didn't want to go down without a fight and they wanted to go down doing their duty.

[Northern light]

I think the biggest fear the KG had about Ned was that he would deprive Jon of his heritage, which was exactly what he did (if R+L=J is true). That reason alone was enough for the KG to try and stop Ned.

[Lion of Judah]

I doubt that part of their orders were to turn over Rhaegar's child to anyone and that includes Ned Stark. As it was previously stated all they knew about Ned for the most part was that he was a Stark who supported Robert's rebellion.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I expect it went something like this

Battle of the trident...I guess they are in kingslanding

Kingslanding......I guess they are at Stormsend

Stormsend.....I guess they are on Dragonstone, someone "no just darry"

Ahhh fuck me

[Aetta]

What I've never understood about the whole R+L = J scenario, is why the KG at the TOJ don't seem to tell Ned and his men the truth when they arrive.

Let’s say if R+L = J was true, and the remaining KG stayed at TOJ not only to obey R's commands but also because they were protecting J the last surviving Targ heir, then surely when his uncle Ned turned up on their doorstep they could have erm...brought him to speed on the truth. Preferably before swords were drawn.

Maybe R did swear them to secrecy to protect him, but seriously if J were ever to be crowned King, than at some point the truth about his being a Targ had to be revealed.

It’s really confusing to me why the KG didn't tell Ned the truth when he arrived. Because if R+L = J is true then the fact that the first group of men to find them were led by the honourable Lord Eddard Stark J's maternal uncle should have seemed like a Godsend to the KG.

I'm sure in GOT it's revealed during Ned's feverish memories that he actually told the KG that Jamie and Barristian were spared and showed mercy by Robert, which implies that he wasn't on strict orders to kill them.

Instead they babble on about what being a KG is all about before they draw swords to kill him! Did they actually believe that upon knowing the truth Ned would try and harm/kill the sister he had come to 'rescue' and his own nephew? It's kind of harsh that the KG would think Ned would really stoop to kinslaying...and for what obeying Robert's orders? Which is a moot point since I highly doubt Robert ever had any idea of there being a whole R+L = J, so he could never have ordered the death of J before Ned reached the TOJ.

This hints to me that the KG thought Ned was so faithful, loyal and honour bound to Robert and his Targ hating ways, that they believe he too would kill any Targ on sight.

Still it's weird that they didn't even try and get him to hear the truth from Lyanna to gauge his reaction.

They basically did tell Ned upon his arrival, all in the context of their conversation-

Ned: Hmm, you guys weren't with Rhaegar...odd. You weren't with Aerys...odd. Not even at Storm's end, or with Viserys? Odd, cause you're pretty honorable guys, soooo...

Knights: Nope, if we were free to have been with them, we would have, but we are abiding our orders and our vows.

Ned: I figured that, it's why I just gave you a list of riddles all hinting the same....so, you have the king inside, and he's my nephew.

Arthur: Yep, and we're fighting for the Targ (bastard?)

Ned: Nope, you're not. The rebellion is done, this baby and my sister are coming with me...

Knowing that Ser Dayne was going to serve his nephew, King Jon Targaryen, honorably and true, Ned did the right thing and returned Dawn to Starfall.

[corbon]

Still it's weird that they didn't even try and get him to hear the truth from Lyanna to gauge his reaction.

When you put yorself in someone's shoes in order to judge or gauge their actions, you need to abandon the stuff that you know, and use only what they likely know.

1. Ned Stark is a rebel leader.

2. Ned Stark is a long time friend and companion of the Usurper Robert Baratheon, as they were fostered together at the Eyrie

3. Ned Stark was the main rebel leader at the Sack of Kings Landing, where Targaryen babies were brutally murdered.

There is no way they can let him find out about another Targaryen baby.

Not even his own nephew. At very best that creates an internal conflict for Ned, and there is no way they can know for sure he would resolve it in their favoru - in fact, given that as loyal servants of the Targaryen Dynasty, their only acceptable option is supporting Jon Targaryen to eventually regain his throne, which means Ned eventually killing his own foster-brother, no way they could even realistically hope that Ned would resolve the situation to their satisfaction if he knew all the truth.

Ok, point for you. It would be pretty contrived for Lyanna to join Ned and her betrothed to Eyrie (even if we assume, that the upcoming wedding was planned to be there) and not returning with her little brother and her father to Winterfell. I'm going to step back from my crackpot theory, now believing that Ned was merely assuming what happened to Lyanna.

More likely she stayed in the south at either Riverrun or Harrenhal, slightly less likely somewhere else further south.

She's going to be married to a great Southern Lord, so she needs to spend some time in the south for two reasons - one to refine all those motherless rough northern edges and learn some proper noblewoman's behaviour, and two to start to form those relationships, friendships and connections that underpin the feudal power sttructure and taht will be so important to her successful marriage and role as Lady Baratheon.

Both Riverrun and Harrenhal have young female nobles of roughly her own age who will soon be her relatives (Minisa Tully was a Whent) and staying in either place means she doesn't have to trek all the way north again, and back, in the year or so between the Tourney of Harrenhal and her brother's wedding at Riverrun (then presumably some time later her own). Brandon also appears to have been at Riverrun, or at least in the south, though whether he stayed there longer term or had only relatively recently arrived to prepare for his wedding isn't clear.

[Aetta]

When you put yorself in someone's shoes in order to judge or gauge their actions, you need to abandon the stuff that you know, and use only what they likely know.

1. Ned Stark is a rebel leader.

2. Ned Stark is a long time friend and companion of the Usurper Robert Baratheon, as they were fostered together at the Eyrie

3. Ned Stark was the main rebel leader at the Sack of Kings Landing, where Targaryen babies were brutally murdered.

There is no way they can let him find out about another Targaryen baby.

Not even his own nephew. At very best that creates an internal conflict for Ned, and there is no way they can know for sure he would resolve it in their favoru - in fact, given that as loyal servants of the Targaryen Dynasty, their only acceptable option is supporting Jon Targaryen to eventually regain his throne, which means Ned eventually killing his own foster-brother, no way they could even realistically hope that Ned would resolve the situation to their satisfaction if he knew all the truth.

(BBM and snipped for space)

To clarify and better articulate what I was saying above, I believe Ned already knew, at least as soon as he saw three King's Guard there. The only other reason they'd be there is if they were AWOL. But Ned knows damn well that these three are not the type of knights that would go AWOL. Maybe Jaime, or the Darry, but not the Sword of the Morning.

And the knights knew that Ned knew. Why? Because of the types of questions Ned was asking. All of Ned's questions break down to one element: You knights are Kings Guard, and if you have not abandoned your cloaks, there is only one other reason for you to be here.

Ned figured it out just like we readers are figuring it out.

The answers the knights give are confirmations that yes, they are indeed still oath-bound King's Guard. And if they weren't doing something needful there at ToJ, you bet your butt they would have been lopping heads at the Trident, or at Storm's End. That unlike Jaime, they don't turn their backs on their oath.

Like the rest of the realm, Ned knew Rhaegar had Lyanna hidden somewhere-Ask yourself how he knew to go to ToJ to begin with...3 King's Guard + one sister disappeared with the Prince = Oh crap, I have to put an end to this NOW. Likewise, I don't think the King's Guard thought it was happenstance that Ned was the one showing up. I mean, that's his sister up there. They may have thought Ned was going to proclaim Jon some king of Winterfell, or a ward of Robert. And they had no love for Winterfell or Robert, they had love for Rhaegar. They weren't going to let Ned take Rhaegar's blood, call it his own, and toss away their Prince's legacy-Even if they understood why Ned was doing it.