12 replies to this topic

[total1402]

I can vaguely remember Jon and the ambassador from the Iron Bank conversing on the subject and Arya being told something about how the FM gave the gift of the doom to Valyria for their slaving. Could somebody quote these excerpts or are there others I'm not aware of? I admit I do find it strange that both seem to be because the Valyrians used dragons to enslave them when Dany is expressly doing the opposite with her dragons. At least the Maesters have a reason for hating dragons due to their magical nature which doesn't involve Daenerys motivations.

Do you think these are enough to conclusively say that both the FM and Braavos will be mortal enemies of Daenerys because she possesses dragons?

Edited by total1402, 27 December 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[E-Ro]

Everyone hates dragons except the people controlling the dragons.

[Knight Of Winter]

Here's a quote brought to you by Tycho Nestoris:

Quote

My lord jests. You will forgive me if I do not laugh. We Braavosi are descended from those who fled Valyria and the wroth of its dragonlords. We do not jape of dragons.

total1402, on 27 December 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

about how the FM gave the gift of the doom to Valyria for their slaving.

No such quotes exist. Doom of Valyria is still a big mystery, and it is unknown whether FM had a hand in it or no (though I personaly believe it's quite a probable possibility)

total1402, on 27 December 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

Do you think these are enough to conclusively say that both the FM and Braavos will be mortal enemies of Daenerys because she possesses dragons?

Who can say? Maybe they'll hate her for having dragons and maybe they'll love her for freeing slaves. Dragons and slavery were always complementary in the past - it will be interesting how will Braavosi react now when dragon lady fights against the slavery.

[kissdbyfire]

The way I see it, they hate dragons by proxy, so to speak. They really indeed hate slavers and the slavers in their case were the dragonlords of Valyria.

[Maester Farwynd]

I think it simply relates to GRRM's comparison of dragons and weapons of mass destruction. The potential destruction that is inherent to dragons could make anyone question the ethics of using them. I think it's an interesting point that the FM might oppose Dany's rule, especially with all the stories of her dragon's destruction spreading across the kingdoms.

[danm_999]

Knight Of Winter, on 27 December 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

No such quotes exist. Doom of Valyria is still a big mystery, and it is unknown whether FM had a hand in it or no (though I personaly believe it's quite a probable possibility)

The quote suggesting the first Faceless Man had something to do with the Doom is this:

Quote

Arya drew back from him. “He killed the slave?” That did not sound right. “He should have killed the masters!”
“He would bring the gift to them as well . . . but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one.”

[thewingedwolf]

We discussed this in another thread, I think it was because Braavos was founded by former slaves of old Valyria they associate dragons with their slavery.

[total1402]

thewingedwolf, on 27 December 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

We discussed this in another thread, I think it was because Braavos was founded by former slaves of old Valyria they associate dragons with their slavery.

Yeah I just find it slightly illogical that they would both dislike Danys dragons given her being so anti-slavery and being at war with Braavos traiditional enemy Volantis. But then again, stranger things have happened in this series.

[thewingedwolf]

total1402, on 27 December 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Yeah I just find it slightly illogical that they would both dislike Danys dragons given her being so anti-slavery and being at war with Braavos traiditional enemy Volantis. But then again, stranger things have happened in this series.

Dany represents Old Valyria and all that Braavos stands against.  Regardless of who she is or what she does, she is typecasted as such IMO

[total1402]

thewingedwolf, on 27 December 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Dany represents Old Valyria and all that Braavos stands against.  Regardless of who she is or what she does, she is typecasted as such IMO

Naturally.

[thewingedwolf]

What I think is more interesting in this type of discussion is a concept that was brought up in a thread on Jaqen's original targets (i.e. why he was in the black cells).  The discussion circled around there being two branches of the FM.  One being the "assassins for hire" who only carry out missions and do not have their own agenda and another being a more secretive, elite order (i.e. one that Jaqen was part of, considering he is able to change faces on the fly and that he seems to bend the rules of the FM, at least the rules presented to Arya by the Kindly Man) carrying out an agenda of their own.

I think the dragon piece falls into that category but then again, this is pure speculation at this point.

[The Red Pope]

It's stated several times that the mere existence of dragons in the world makes magic spells more potent. And we know that the FM are big users of magic. So for that reason they might be positive towards the dragons, and even seek to protect them.

[butterbumps!]

total1402, on 27 December 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Yeah I just find it slightly illogical that they would both dislike Danys dragons given her being so anti-slavery and being at war with Braavos traiditional enemy Volantis. But then again, stranger things have happened in this series.

It's not illogical.  Dany has 3 dragons, two of which are likely to end up in someone else's hands.  The natural lifespan of dragons is far longer than a human lifespan, so there is always an issue that when Dany dies, the next person who rides Drogon might not be so pure-intentioned in using him.  I think it makes perfect sense that the Braavosi would have a strong reaction against Dany's dragons, because dragons are innately suited to be tools of oppression.  I could see their supporting Dany if she continued her abolitionist agenda without using dragons/ returned them to nature after an effective conquest.