Not sure about anyone else but I found that almost as soon as Jaime became a POV character I liked him much much better. But here's a question, is he really in the middle of a redemption arc?
To truly need redeeming he would have had to have done some pretty evil things in the first place, and though he's done bad things, his reasoning behind it kind of removes from the evilness. Take his 3 most 'evil' deeds.
1. Killing Aerys - yes he swore to protect him and all that but really, Aerys was horrible and clearly insane. And at the time he was demanding Jaime to bring him his father's head, so it is kind of understandable that Jaime killed him.
2. Pushing Bran out of the window - he does say that he regrets doing it, and in his own twisted way he was doing it of love for Cersei.
3. Setting his men on Ned - well if someone was threatening your brother you'd probably want to hurt them too.
All in all I have my doubts about if Jaime needs redeeming at all. Thoughts?
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was Jaime ever really an 'evil' person (so is it really a redemption arc)
Started by
Lady Green
, Jan 02 2013 10:47 AM
183 replies to this topic
#2
g.o.d
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:57 AM
1. well I don't remeber if it was in the books but in TV show Ned told him that he served Aerys when serving was safe. I don't condemn Jaime for killing the Mad King but I'm sure he didn't do for the realm but for his own agenda(whatever it was)
2. If he deserves any punishment, it's certainly for this.
3. I agree with you on this
2. If he deserves any punishment, it's certainly for this.
3. I agree with you on this
#3
danm_999
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:01 AM
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2. Pushing Bran out of the window - he does say that he regrets doing it, and in his own twisted way he was doing it of love for Cersei.
Sorry, why the fuck isn't this evil?
#4
Dornish Whine
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:02 AM
I think he at least needs redeeming in the eyes of Westeros. He is seen as having no honor and is scoffed at by most anyone (though not always to his face). His role in Feast and Dance has him slowly redeeming his horse... I mean honor within Westeros.
Also, prior to his POV I am pretty sure the average reader despised him. After his POV (as you point out) he has begun redemption in the readers eyes.
In short - his actions may not be without honor, but it is the perception of him in other character's eyes and the eyes of the reader that call for redemption. Sorta like Varys' "power" riddle - Honor is where people believe it to be.
ETA:
His agenda was very honorable and served the Realm as well - Aery's was going to blow up all of King's Landing. The loss of life and ensuing chaos from such an act would have completely broken Westeros and set it back to the time of the Seven Kingdoms.
Also, prior to his POV I am pretty sure the average reader despised him. After his POV (as you point out) he has begun redemption in the readers eyes.
In short - his actions may not be without honor, but it is the perception of him in other character's eyes and the eyes of the reader that call for redemption. Sorta like Varys' "power" riddle - Honor is where people believe it to be.
ETA:
g.o.d, on 02 January 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:
1. well I don't remeber if it was in the books but in TV show Ned told him that he served Aerys when serving was safe. I don't condemn Jaime for killing the Mad King but I'm sure he didn't do for the realm but for his own agenda(whatever it was)
His agenda was very honorable and served the Realm as well - Aery's was going to blow up all of King's Landing. The loss of life and ensuing chaos from such an act would have completely broken Westeros and set it back to the time of the Seven Kingdoms.
Edited by Dornish Whine, 02 January 2013 - 11:06 AM.
#5
Flig
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:09 AM
g.o.d, on 02 January 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:
1. well I don't remeber if it was in the books but in TV show Ned told him that he served Aerys when serving was safe.
That was the T.V. show.
The first one, I applaud Jaime for.
The last one I agree with the move he made to a point, killing his men may have went a bit far, but Cat kidnapped Tyrion and people want Jaime to do nothing about it? Please.
The second one...well...I understand his motives, I mean at that point it was basically kill this 8 year old boy or be executed for fucking the king's wife, but still...I can't condone the attempted murder of children.
#6
Dornish Whine
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:14 AM
Flig, on 02 January 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:
The second one...well...I understand his motives, I mean at that point it was basically kill this 8 year old boy or be executed for fucking the king's wife, but still...I can't condone the attempted murder of children.
Also... if you knew Cersei like Jaime knew Cersei, then you would know the boy was doomed anyways. It would be far easier to end it then and there, than to have to figure out a way to kill the boy later. Evil? Yes, but there was really no better option.
#7
David Selig
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:24 AM
Yeah, murdering three men because their boss's wife arrested your brother (and the whole chain of events was started by Jaime when he pushed Bran, BTW), is totally understandable and not evil at all. Same for murdering a little child to cover up a major crime.
Threads like this really make me laugh. The absurd justifications people come up to defend their favorites are hilarious.
Threads like this really make me laugh. The absurd justifications people come up to defend their favorites are hilarious.
Edited by David Selig, 02 January 2013 - 11:25 AM.
#8
Lady Sansa Stark
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:24 AM
Dornish Whine, on 02 January 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:
Also... if you knew Cersei like Jaime knew Cersei, then you would know the boy was doomed anyways. It would be far easier to end it then and there, than to have to figure out a way to kill the boy later. Evil? Yes, but there was really no better option.
Jaime lived for no one except for himself and perhaps for Cersei, but that's about it. Yes, I don't blame him that much for killing Aerys, but that was quite easy if your father's men are already at the door and King's Landing is being sacked, while Elia and her children are being slaughtered. He should have looked for them, but instead, he just sits there on the Throne, all arrogance.
No, he wasn't really an evil man like Ramsay Bolton, but Jaime Lannister was never a saint as well.
#9
danm_999
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:30 AM
David Selig, on 02 January 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:
Same for murdering a little child to cover up a major crime.
Lady Sansa Stark, on 02 January 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:
Oh no, Cersei herself admits there were other, better options that don't involve throwing an innocent 7-year-old out of a fucking window.
I honestly think a lot of people confuse having a motive to murder someone as morality. Because a character internally rationalises their choice it's ok. Villains twirl their moustaches and think "boy ain't I a nasty guy who does evil things!".
Oh, Jaime had a reason to throw Bran to his death? Not evil then.
#10
Kittykatknits
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:39 AM
danm_999, on 02 January 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:
I honestly think a lot of people confuse having a motive to murder someone as morality. Because a character internally rationalises their choice it's ok. Villains twirl their moustaches and think "boy ain't I a nasty guy who does evil things!".
Oh, Jaime had a reason to throw Bran to his death? Not evil then.
Oh, Jaime had a reason to throw Bran to his death? Not evil then.
#11
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:43 AM
Yes. He was indifferent to the suffering and death that he willfully and needlessly caused to others for reasons that only served his own selfish good. Even in AFFC/ADWD he's not motivated by thoughts of what he's done to others but by a wish to feel better about himself, to be able to say that he's an honourable man who follows the letter of the law even as he works for the consolidation of gains made possible by Lannister, Frey and Bolton crimes.
If truth be told, Jaime had come to rue heaving Brandon Stark out that window. Cersei had given him no end of grief afterward, when the boy refused to die. “He was seven, Jaime,” she’d berated him. “Even if he understood what he saw, we should have been able to frighten him into silence.”
“I didn’t think you’d want -”
“You never think. If the boy should wake and tell his father what he saw -”
“If if if.” He had pulled her into his lap. “if he wakes we’ll say he was dreaming, we’ll call him a liar, and should worse come to worst I’ll kill Ned Stark.”
“And then what do you imagine Robert will do?”
“Let Robert do as he pleases. I’ll go to war with him if I must. The War for Cersei’s Cunt, the singers will call it.”
“Jaime, let go of me!” she raged, struggling to rise.
Instead he had kissed her. For a moment she resisted, but then her mouth opened under his. He remembered the taste of wine and cloves on her tongue. She gave a shudder. His hand went to her bodice and yanked, tearing the silk so her breasts spilled free, and for a time the Stark boy had been forgotten.
That's a real good man there, not giving a damn about what he's done or the consequences. Jaime is taking the risk that the boy either dies or lives and tells all, while Cersei is arguing in favour of the other option of causing no suspicious drama and letting the little boy forget seeing something that he didn't even know the meaning of. IIRC, this is the most extended sequence about his attempted child-killing in Jaime's POV, even after he's been "redeemed" and is threatening the life of Bran's unborn cousin (which might have brought back some unpleasant memories if the first incident had made any impact on his conscience at all). And "doing it for love" is a damn poor excuse. Ned risked Robert's wrath by hiding Rhaegar's son, out of love for Lyanna, but since he was actually a good man he didn't put himself in a position where he'd have to kill children to hide that secret: instead he chose to practice self-discipline and didn't even tell his nephew or his wife the truth. As a result, no one's tried to kill the Starks or anyone else over Jon's likely parentage; they've been screwed over by getting caught up in Jaime's ongoing affair with the queen and the very predictable war that followed its discovery.
Jaime tries to kill Ned's 7-year-old son to cover up the treason he chose to commit under Ned's roof (shouldn't the guest show a bit of respect to the host and not just the host to the guest?). Catelyn arrests his brother believing that he's responsible for the crime Jaime committed. This somehow justifies Jaime ordering innocent men killed in order to hurt Ned for having dared to investigate his son's attempted murder? It's terribly hypocritical, cruel, and does absolutely nothing to help Tyrion.
It's not evil because if you recklessly commit a crime that you know has terrible consequences if discovered, naturally you have the right to murder even innocent children to cover it up. How on earth could you be asked to accept your punishment like a grown man or restrain yourself by not committing the crime in the first place?
lmg1406, on 02 January 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:
2. Pushing Bran out of the window - he does say that he regrets doing it, and in his own twisted way he was doing it of love for Cersei.
If truth be told, Jaime had come to rue heaving Brandon Stark out that window. Cersei had given him no end of grief afterward, when the boy refused to die. “He was seven, Jaime,” she’d berated him. “Even if he understood what he saw, we should have been able to frighten him into silence.”
“I didn’t think you’d want -”
“You never think. If the boy should wake and tell his father what he saw -”
“If if if.” He had pulled her into his lap. “if he wakes we’ll say he was dreaming, we’ll call him a liar, and should worse come to worst I’ll kill Ned Stark.”
“And then what do you imagine Robert will do?”
“Let Robert do as he pleases. I’ll go to war with him if I must. The War for Cersei’s Cunt, the singers will call it.”
“Jaime, let go of me!” she raged, struggling to rise.
Instead he had kissed her. For a moment she resisted, but then her mouth opened under his. He remembered the taste of wine and cloves on her tongue. She gave a shudder. His hand went to her bodice and yanked, tearing the silk so her breasts spilled free, and for a time the Stark boy had been forgotten.
That's a real good man there, not giving a damn about what he's done or the consequences. Jaime is taking the risk that the boy either dies or lives and tells all, while Cersei is arguing in favour of the other option of causing no suspicious drama and letting the little boy forget seeing something that he didn't even know the meaning of. IIRC, this is the most extended sequence about his attempted child-killing in Jaime's POV, even after he's been "redeemed" and is threatening the life of Bran's unborn cousin (which might have brought back some unpleasant memories if the first incident had made any impact on his conscience at all). And "doing it for love" is a damn poor excuse. Ned risked Robert's wrath by hiding Rhaegar's son, out of love for Lyanna, but since he was actually a good man he didn't put himself in a position where he'd have to kill children to hide that secret: instead he chose to practice self-discipline and didn't even tell his nephew or his wife the truth. As a result, no one's tried to kill the Starks or anyone else over Jon's likely parentage; they've been screwed over by getting caught up in Jaime's ongoing affair with the queen and the very predictable war that followed its discovery.
Quote
3. Setting his men on Ned - well if someone was threatening your brother you'd probably want to hurt them too.
Jaime tries to kill Ned's 7-year-old son to cover up the treason he chose to commit under Ned's roof (shouldn't the guest show a bit of respect to the host and not just the host to the guest?). Catelyn arrests his brother believing that he's responsible for the crime Jaime committed. This somehow justifies Jaime ordering innocent men killed in order to hurt Ned for having dared to investigate his son's attempted murder? It's terribly hypocritical, cruel, and does absolutely nothing to help Tyrion.
danm_999, on 02 January 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:
Sorry, why the fuck isn't this evil?
It's not evil because if you recklessly commit a crime that you know has terrible consequences if discovered, naturally you have the right to murder even innocent children to cover it up. How on earth could you be asked to accept your punishment like a grown man or restrain yourself by not committing the crime in the first place?
#12
Philip Baratheon
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:44 AM
Seeing as how Jaime was directly responsible for Bran's condition, he could not possibly have been unaware why Catelyn seized Tyrion. His attack on Ned and his men was unacceptable.
#13
Where Boars Glow
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:49 AM
lmg1406, on 02 January 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:
Not sure about anyone else but I found that almost as soon as Jaime became a POV character I liked him much much better. But here's a question, is he really in the middle of a redemption arc?
To truly need redeeming he would have had to have done some pretty evil things in the first place, and though he's done bad things, his reasoning behind it kind of removes from the evilness. Take his 3 most 'evil' deeds.
1. Killing Aerys - yes he swore to protect him and all that but really, Aerys was horrible and clearly insane. And at the time he was demanding Jaime to bring him his father's head, so it is kind of understandable that Jaime killed him.
2. Pushing Bran out of the window - he does say that he regrets doing it, and in his own twisted way he was doing it of love for Cersei.
3. Setting his men on Ned - well if someone was threatening your brother you'd probably want to hurt them too.
All in all I have my doubts about if Jaime needs redeeming at all. Thoughts?
To truly need redeeming he would have had to have done some pretty evil things in the first place, and though he's done bad things, his reasoning behind it kind of removes from the evilness. Take his 3 most 'evil' deeds.
1. Killing Aerys - yes he swore to protect him and all that but really, Aerys was horrible and clearly insane. And at the time he was demanding Jaime to bring him his father's head, so it is kind of understandable that Jaime killed him.
2. Pushing Bran out of the window - he does say that he regrets doing it, and in his own twisted way he was doing it of love for Cersei.
3. Setting his men on Ned - well if someone was threatening your brother you'd probably want to hurt them too.
All in all I have my doubts about if Jaime needs redeeming at all. Thoughts?
Look i am a HUGE Jamie fan. I love his redpetion arc. YES he definately needs redemption. Pushing children out windows is horrible regardless of your reasons. Their is just absolutely no getting around this point.
#14
ElizaMartell
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:53 AM
How many of these threads must we have?
#15
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:55 AM
ElizaMartell, on 02 January 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:
How many of these threads must we have?
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#16
Nudu
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:59 AM
lmg1406, on 02 January 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:
Not sure about anyone else but I found that almost as soon as Jaime became a POV character I liked him much much better. But here's a question, is he really in the middle of a redemption arc?
To truly need redeeming he would have had to have done some pretty evil things in the first place, and though he's done bad things, his reasoning behind it kind of removes from the evilness. Take his 3 most 'evil' deeds.
1. Killing Aerys - yes he swore to protect him and all that but really, Aerys was horrible and clearly insane. And at the time he was demanding Jaime to bring him his father's head, so it is kind of understandable that Jaime killed him.
2. Pushing Bran out of the window - he does say that he regrets doing it, and in his own twisted way he was doing it of love for Cersei.
3. Setting his men on Ned - well if someone was threatening your brother you'd probably want to hurt them too.
All in all I have my doubts about if Jaime needs redeeming at all. Thoughts?
To truly need redeeming he would have had to have done some pretty evil things in the first place, and though he's done bad things, his reasoning behind it kind of removes from the evilness. Take his 3 most 'evil' deeds.
1. Killing Aerys - yes he swore to protect him and all that but really, Aerys was horrible and clearly insane. And at the time he was demanding Jaime to bring him his father's head, so it is kind of understandable that Jaime killed him.
2. Pushing Bran out of the window - he does say that he regrets doing it, and in his own twisted way he was doing it of love for Cersei.
3. Setting his men on Ned - well if someone was threatening your brother you'd probably want to hurt them too.
All in all I have my doubts about if Jaime needs redeeming at all. Thoughts?
Fucking your king's wife who is your sister?
#17
lightbringer333
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:01 PM
danm_999, on 02 January 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:
Sorry, why the fuck isn't this evil?
danm_999, on 02 January 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:
Sorry, why the fuck isn't this evil?
hahahah......u r right. jamie had a choice.
Jamie to Bran: " oops!!!! "hi bran, what r u doin here ?? we were not expecting u. Please dont tell this to anybody. Please accept this blank cheque from the Bank of Casterly rock and fill whatever amount u want to fill. But please ah , this shuld remain secret. Thanks a lot buddy and Now please leave us. I need to finish my orgasm."
#18
DaveSnow House Stark
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:03 PM
Yeah, but he did it because he is in love. Oh boy. Isn't that what the man who killed John Lennon said, that he did it because he loves Jodi Foster and wanted to get her attention?
I actually like Jaime's charactor now, mostly because he is a smart ass and I enjoy that, but he truly is a low down piece of crap that needs to die or suffer a long lonely life.
I actually like Jaime's charactor now, mostly because he is a smart ass and I enjoy that, but he truly is a low down piece of crap that needs to die or suffer a long lonely life.
#19
LeoSuperstar
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:04 PM
lightbringer333, on 02 January 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:
hahahah......u r right. jamie had a choice.
Jamie to Bran: " oops!!!! "hi bran, what r u doin here ?? we were not expecting u. Please dont tell this to anybody. Please accept this blank cheque from the Bank of Casterly rock and fill whatever amount u want to fill. But please ah , this shuld remain secret. Thanks a lot buddy and Now please leave us. I need to finish my orgasm."
Jamie to Bran: " oops!!!! "hi bran, what r u doin here ?? we were not expecting u. Please dont tell this to anybody. Please accept this blank cheque from the Bank of Casterly rock and fill whatever amount u want to fill. But please ah , this shuld remain secret. Thanks a lot buddy and Now please leave us. I need to finish my orgasm."
#20
DaveSnow House Stark
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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:05 PM
Oh, and BTW, unless you want this site to die a stagnant death, these threads are needed. Just because you have seen and discussed this before doesn't mean that all fans have. Remember that this is a fan site, not just your site with only threads that you have never seen before. Simple solution for you is to stay out of threads that do not interest you instead criticizing.
